NMHRK is a mantra or not

mansurhirbi87
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NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

I know it was posedt here long ago, but it's not clear to me yet

_/\_
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

The Sanskrit word, “mantra” actually has the same etymological root as the words “mental” and “mind”. The meaning of “mantra” is that which focuses the mind.
If you chant NMHRK to focus the mind, then it is a mantra. In fact, you could simply chant the letters, “N-M-H-R-K” and if doing that helped you to focus your mind, it eiuix be a mantra.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Grigoris »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:16 am I know it was posedt here long ago, but it's not clear to me yet

_/\_
If I (or somebody else) said "No, it is a dharani", or if I said "Yes, it is a mantra" what difference would it make to the practice?

What difference would it make to your practice?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Bois de Santal
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Bois de Santal »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:38 am The Sanskrit word, “mantra” actually has the same etymological root as the words “mental” and “mind”. The meaning of “mantra” is that which focuses the mind.
If you chant NMHRK to focus the mind, then it is a mantra. In fact, you could simply chant the letters, “N-M-H-R-K” and if doing that helped you to focus your mind, it eiuix be a mantra.
I think there is more to a mantra than that. In a mantra the sounds themselves are important. And it is certainly true that the actual sounds of NMHRGK are not that important. Even just within the chinese/japanese languages the sounds have evolved enormously over the centuries.

OTOH, there is a certain fluidity and economy to NMHRGK which is lacking in the phrase 'i offer my life to the sutra of the mystic law of cause and effect.' Technically the latter is just as valid as the former, but somehow I don't see it catching on.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Bois de Santal wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 12:18 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 3:38 am The Sanskrit word, “mantra” actually has the same etymological root as the words “mental” and “mind”. The meaning of “mantra” is that which focuses the mind.
If you chant NMHRK to focus the mind, then it is a mantra. In fact, you could simply chant the letters, “N-M-H-R-K” and if doing that helped you to focus your mind, it eiuix be a mantra.
I think there is more to a mantra than that. In a mantra the sounds themselves are important. And it is certainly true that the actual sounds of NMHRGK are not that important. Even just within the chinese/japanese languages the sounds have evolved enormously over the centuries.

OTOH, there is a certain fluidity and economy to NMHRGK which is lacking in the phrase 'i offer my life to the sutra of the mystic law of cause and effect.' Technically the latter is just as valid as the former, but somehow I don't see it catching on.
My point is, it becomes a mantra if/when it has the effect of a mantra.
This, rather than it inherently being a mantra, or dharani, or whatever.
It’s like, a teapot becomes a vase when you put flowers in it.
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Minobu
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

different mantras are considered names of Buddhas...
Om Mani Padme Hum , Avalokiteshvara

Om Tare Tuttare Tare Svaha , Buddha goddess Tara
NMRK is the name for that which all things are manifest from and yet is not what it manifests.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:16 am I know it was posedt here long ago, but it's not clear to me yet

_/\_
If I (or somebody else) said "No, it is a dharani", or if I said "Yes, it is a mantra" what difference would it make to the practice?

What difference would it make to your practice?
in this case not much, if anything at all ..but in our practice right view is essential
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Grigoris »

Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:32 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am
mansurhirbi87 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 2:16 am I know it was posedt here long ago, but it's not clear to me yet

_/\_
If I (or somebody else) said "No, it is a dharani", or if I said "Yes, it is a mantra" what difference would it make to the practice?

What difference would it make to your practice?
in this case not much, if anything at all ..but in our practice right view is essential
Right View is about recognising the Dependently Originated nature (emptiness) of all phenomena. This has got nothing to do with Right View.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by tkp67 »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:45 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:32 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am If I (or somebody else) said "No, it is a dharani", or if I said "Yes, it is a mantra" what difference would it make to the practice?

What difference would it make to your practice?
in this case not much, if anything at all ..but in our practice right view is essential
Right View is about recognising the Dependently Originated nature (emptiness) of all phenomena. This has got nothing to do with Right View.
I would be interested to see where Nichiren teaches this.
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Minobu
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:45 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:32 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:58 am If I (or somebody else) said "No, it is a dharani", or if I said "Yes, it is a mantra" what difference would it make to the practice?

What difference would it make to your practice?
in this case not much, if anything at all ..but in our practice right view is essential
Right View is about recognising the Dependently Originated nature (emptiness) of all phenomena. This has got nothing to do with Right View.
well Nichiren babes was a stickler on everything , so take it from there.
but i get what you are saying and in any other section here DW, it would be left at that alone being the Buddhist Gold Standard , for correct view.
Not that Nichiren Daishonin was not fully enlightened to
"Right View is about recognising the Dependently Originated nature (emptiness) of all phenomena "
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:12 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:45 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:32 pm

in this case not much, if anything at all ..but in our practice right view is essential
Right View is about recognising the Dependently Originated nature (emptiness) of all phenomena. This has got nothing to do with Right View.
I would be interested to see where Nichiren teaches this.
Off the top of me head i can't point to it in His writings , but He does understand Sunyata . I've read stuff where I know He is discussing Sunyata.

I assume all TenDai priest worth their weight would also at least know it intellectually.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Grigoris »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:12 pmI would be interested to see where Nichiren teaches this.
Sorry, maybe it was not clear: I am talking about Buddhism in general.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:20 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:12 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:45 pm Right View is about recognising the Dependently Originated nature (emptiness) of all phenomena. This has got nothing to do with Right View.
I would be interested to see where Nichiren teaches this.
Off the top of me head i can't point to it in His writings , but He does understand Sunyata . I've read stuff where I know He is discussing Sunyata.

I assume all TenDai priest worth their weight would also at least know it intellectually.
It was rhetorical since the 3 truth model replaces the 2 truth model in more than one EA tradition. Provisional if you would. This however does not denigrate these older teachings it simply improves on them for the sake of efficiency. They (teachings) are very much products of their "environments". I.E. causes, conditions and capacities of the peoples at the time the teaching was developed.

I often think Nichiren is to buddhism as Einstein was to physics because his teachings put reality so perfectly into relative and absolute aspects.

I was powerfully lambasted for stating the "round" part of the contemplation was turning around the but it seemed what no one grasped is it speaks to looking from the inside out (mind of buddha) opposed to the outside looking in (mind of ordinary human). This basically means that one does not conceptualize the meaning of phenomenon an external abstract but as the very nucleus because this is what the mind is in regards to our existence.

The economy of effort and simplicity might make it seem too easy to be most potent in practice but the daimoku is not just an analogy or metaphor it is also a function as is the title of the Lotus Sutra itself.

If I understand it correctly this is because it (Daimoku/title of the Lotus Sutra) , in and of itself is the seed to complete, supreme and perfect enlightenment of Shakyamuni. Causes, conditions and capacities non withstanding.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:06 am
Minobu wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:20 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:12 pm

I would be interested to see where Nichiren teaches this.
Off the top of me head i can't point to it in His writings , but He does understand Sunyata . I've read stuff where I know He is discussing Sunyata.

I assume all TenDai priest worth their weight would also at least know it intellectually.
It was rhetorical since the 3 truth model replaces the 2 truth model in more than one EA tradition. Provisional if you would. This however does not denigrate these older teachings it simply improves on them for the sake of efficiency. They (teachings) are very much products of their "environments". I.E. causes, conditions and capacities of the peoples at the time the teaching was developed.

I often think Nichiren is to buddhism as Einstein was to physics because his teachings put reality so perfectly into relative and absolute aspects.

I was powerfully lambasted for stating the "round" part of the contemplation was turning around the but it seemed what no one grasped is it speaks to looking from the inside out (mind of buddha) opposed to the outside looking in (mind of ordinary human). This basically means that one does not conceptualize the meaning of phenomenon an external abstract but as the very nucleus because this is what the mind is in regards to our existence.

The economy of effort and simplicity might make it seem too easy to be most potent in practice but the daimoku is not just an analogy or metaphor it is also a function as is the title of the Lotus Sutra itself.

If I understand it correctly this is because it (Daimoku/title of the Lotus Sutra) , in and of itself is the seed to complete, supreme and perfect enlightenment of Shakyamuni. Causes, conditions and capacities non withstanding.
Hi

whats EA tradition? and i don't get
the 3 truth model replaces the 2 truth model

Little confused as to where you are going with .
I often think Nichiren is to buddhism as Einstein was to physics because his teachings put reality so perfectly into relative and absolute aspects.
also I would like to comment on
Provisional if you would. This however does not denigrate these older teachings it simply improves on them for the sake of efficiency. They (teachings) are very much products of their "environments". I.E. causes, conditions and capacities of the peoples at the time the teaching was developed.
if you are referring to Sunyata , i don't see how you think Nichiren Shonin modified or made more modern Sunyata.
for my money thats like saying someone reinvented gravity.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

Grigoris wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 8:14 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:12 pmI would be interested to see where Nichiren teaches this.
Sorry, maybe it was not clear: I am talking about Buddhism in general.
Yeah I got that.
A lot of Nichiren Shonin's gosho (letters to believers) generally were written to ordinary folk , who did not have formal Buddhist training.
I feel it was the state of affairs for peasants in feudal Japan that really touched him.. I read somewhere where a samurai could ask a peasant if he could chop off his head in order to see if his sword was any good...

so He gave much attention to these people , which is why the common folk of today who practice this form of Buddhism experience many material,physical and social benefits from the practice. It's a form of teaching and making ready for what is to come..Shows one the power you have inside you and it gets accessed by anyone right away..The gods seem to favour those who practice.

So, a lot of times you will read about Nichiren Shonin talking about right view in regards to various aspects of Buddhist theology .

this is my take on it Grigoris .
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Sun Aug 09, 2020 2:15 pm Hi

whats EA tradition?
Hello :). EA = East Asian.
minobu wrote:and i don't get
tkp67 wrote:the 3 truth model replaces the 2 truth model
As this is the Nichiren sub forum it is important to clarify that the two truth model did not remain static and it was for specific reasoning. One of those reasons was to accommodate opening the doors of buddhism to all sentient beings, not just those capable of discerning a specific provisional path taught in the past.
Minobu wrote:Little confused as to where you are going with .
tkp67 wrote:I often think Nichiren is to buddhism as Einstein was to physics because his teachings put reality so perfectly into relative and absolute aspects.
It would seem to me the "eyes of the world" that the votary facilitate is specifically this, which is why his teachings are always encouraging this process. Discarding the provisional to reveal the absolute (paraphrasing).
Minobu wrote:also I would like to comment on
tkp67 wrote:Provisional if you would. This however does not denigrate these older teachings it simply improves on them for the sake of efficiency. They (teachings) are very much products of their "environments". I.E. causes, conditions and capacities of the peoples at the time the teaching was developed.
if you are referring to Sunyata , i don't see how you think Nichiren Shonin modified or made more modern Sunyata.
for my money thats like saying someone reinvented gravity.
The comment was directed at the contrast between 2-truth and 3-truth model teachings. These models are adapted for propagation relative to cause, condition, capacity and time. They are all "supreme" during the living moment they where taught by their original teachers but as time goes on and the above variables change the teachings are reinterpreted accordingly. The thus come ones carry the baton of the same primordial buddha which is why the teachings maintain congruence over time and represent the same purpose without a loss of continuity in understanding. The display of the transcendental powers of a thus come one.

I believe if we read deeply enough into the goshos no past teachings is discarded from the storehouse of the buddhas of the the directions and the three times. They aren't meant to be lost (although that is an accepted fate) but rather put a premium is put on what should be propagated which is to keep essence of buddhism alive for perpetuity. In this way no teaching is really lost as they are all part of a chain of causation that is recognized by the buddha of the ten directions and three times. One line I quoted elsewhere with Mark was that the Lotus is meant to be taught "As is". I wonder how much consideration is put into this small but powerful statement.

Either way I believe this chapter of the LS speaks to the dynamic.

Two translations of The super natural powers of the thus come one for consideration.

http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/BT ... otus21.htm

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/21
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:12 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:45 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 08, 2020 5:32 pm

in this case not much, if anything at all ..but in our practice right view is essential
Right View is about recognising the Dependently Originated nature (emptiness) of all phenomena. This has got nothing to do with Right View.
I would be interested to see where Nichiren teaches this.
This post of yous has been buzzing round me head..

I would like to say where i was taught about sunyata.

It was over my five years of study under under a Root Guru of Mine , Zasep Tulku Rinpoche.

Every now and then He would talk on sunyata. It was like a long series of breaks and talks over five years until finally i got it.

My grammar sucks and to articulate things is hard.

but even me through Rinpoche i get the gist of Sunyata ... which in and of itself is no easy feat and rare in this degenerative time...and then eventually His teaching on How it is a Philosophy once you combine the teaching with compassion. which one person here screamed foul it's not a philosophy.

Once you see that , it's a highly advanced view of the world we dwell in.

If you google Zasep Tulku Rinpoche you might be surprised as to what is said about Him.

We are not allowed to discuss such things at DW for it seems to have caused a bit of trouble...

I never really heard about this until i came here...way back in the beginning it was just a blurb in the /Toronto Star about His Holiness having a spot of trouble with a ghost..
so i asked and did not know anything and all Rinpoche said was this ..exact quote " When the Bodhisattvas start to argue in heaven we should ignore it "

and then he sort of shook his face and said it all happens from time to time and eventually gets settled.

Point being Zasep Tulku Rinpoche is all about compassion and using any means necessary to bring it out in his students.

for Him to be able to teach such as me ,anything, is a real wonder. He is an awesome Sentient Being...not a mean bone in Him...

but yeah i recall way back in the day when independants were alive and there was a forum with a Nichiren Shu priest Rev Ryue i believe his name was...he sort of held the independence movement together at one time and kept it from getting weird..

anyway i recall posting what i was taught and everyone was like happy to get to actually know what emptiness is being referred to in sunyata...Even the Reverend...who was this american guy and was very good at understanding Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism..but i taught him something...

It's weird but without the core teachings that we seem to refute as being gone of their best before date... there can be no real Buddhist learning.


as I reread gosho and see where Nichiren Shonin is useing Sunyata i shall copy paste and post it as i go..
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by tkp67 »

If I understand correctly an authentic Lama will embody buddhahood so when they teach Sunyata all the additional attributes expressed are being exuded by them. I guess one could call this a multi dimensional experience since it evokes all the senses live and in real time.

When we chant Daimoku we evoke the lotus that is our life so those attributes are transmitted separate of the sutra but rather as a part of it. The tile is not only a metaphor but a function.

From the lotus sutra itself.

---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/10

The Teacher of the Law
“Medicine King, you should know that after the thus come one has entered extinction, if there are those who can copy, uphold, read, and recite this sutra, offer alms to it and expound it for others, then the thus come one will cover them with his p.204robe, and they will also be protected and kept in mind by the buddhas who are now present in other directions. These people will possess the power of great faith, the power of aspiration, the power of good roots. You should know that these people will lodge in the same place as the thus come one, and the thus come one will pat them on the head with his hand.
“Medicine King, if there are good men and good women who, after the thus come one has entered extinction, wish to expound this Lotus Sutra for the four kinds of believers, how should they expound it? These good men and good women should enter the thus come one’s room, put on the thus come one’s robe, sit in the thus come one’s seat, and then for the sake of the four kinds of believers broadly expound this sutra.

“The ‘thus come one’s room’ is the state of mind that shows great pity and compassion toward all living beings. The ‘thus come one’s robe’ is the mind that is gentle and forbearing. The ‘thus come one’s seat’ is the emptiness of all phenomena. One should seat oneself comfortably therein and after that, with a mind never lazy or remiss, should for the sake of the bodhisattvas and the four kinds of believers broadly expound this Lotus Sutra.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:53 am It's weird but without the core teachings that we seem to refute as being gone of their best before date... there can be no real Buddhist learning.
Both Shakyamuni and Nichiren discard the provisional in their process of their own enlightenment. It would seem it was a necessary component of their own enlightenment.
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Re: NMHRK is a mantra or not

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:36 am
Minobu wrote: Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:53 am It's weird but without the core teachings that we seem to refute as being gone of their best before date... there can be no real Buddhist learning.
Both Shakyamuni and Nichiren discard the provisional in their process of their own enlightenment. It would seem it was a necessary component of their own enlightenment.
and yet they both knew all there was to know.
It would seem it was a necessary component of their own enlightenment.
thats really only in your mind...you have no idea what you are even saying. and when asked you just give more of the same without answering.

you remind me of people that read the bible word for word and think being gay is a sin.
It's dangerous
you are reading stuff way too literally..
john pointed this out recently and now it's easy to see.

I'm not up on study , and so a lot of stuff slips by me unchecked.


how does that lil diddy go "Gotta wash that man right out of my head "

toodles
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