when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

narhwal90
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:23 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:12 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:55 pm
reading this , not completely, i came to the conclusion that knocking the Daigohonzon is like a trick of Mara..
I will be more careful in future .
It's the emphasis that this Gohonzon has some sort of special power implied. Now thats the real problem for me...

reading this ...then coming back and seeing your post Narwhal,worked it's magic and i came to this conclusion about the whole affair and me.
Thing is, even if the Mandala folks are correct and the dai-gohonzon was created hundreds of years after Nichiren, and re-manufactured a couple times due to loss by fire (which has destroyed many dozens of originals- perhaps hundreds), its production is still entirely consistent with standard practice. Many gohonzons are said to have special power and significance. Do they actually? I don't know- and I wonder if its appropriate to make claims one way or another with respect to others' practice.
well i'm back to the drawing board where a Gohonzon is a Gohonzon...except i'm not into having one with some High Priests name on it ...for thats a whole other ball of wax...i feel you are bringing his life into the picture and i;m not into that...

as for other persons...we should not argue amongst ourselves...debate but argue...no...
the trick of Mara ...i meant like Mara is fuking with us and causeing dissension ..We end up slandering a Gohonzon ...in the way we talk of it ...emotions run high and it gets worse...Mara ..

This DaiGohonzon is all Nichiren's hand ???....whether it's carved or not does not matter to me..as long as it is pure Nichiren i'm ok ...
But how can you divide a gohonzon from the method by which its produced? For generations they were copied by hand, printed by blocks, eventually by presses; there are procedures and methods for composition. Before modern methods of duplication, for generations, the only way you could get a gohonzon was to have a priest copy one for you- or make one of his own; both methods are accepted. There are gohonzons painted onto silk, some have been cut down to fit into altars, hanging in temples for many decades- shall we disregard those? I'm not trying to make arguments of legitimacy- there is always more to the story.
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Minobu
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:04 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:23 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:12 pm

Thing is, even if the Mandala folks are correct and the dai-gohonzon was created hundreds of years after Nichiren, and re-manufactured a couple times due to loss by fire (which has destroyed many dozens of originals- perhaps hundreds), its production is still entirely consistent with standard practice. Many gohonzons are said to have special power and significance. Do they actually? I don't know- and I wonder if its appropriate to make claims one way or another with respect to others' practice.
well i'm back to the drawing board where a Gohonzon is a Gohonzon...except i'm not into having one with some High Priests name on it ...for thats a whole other ball of wax...i feel you are bringing his life into the picture and i;m not into that...

as for other persons...we should not argue amongst ourselves...debate but argue...no...
the trick of Mara ...i meant like Mara is fuking with us and causeing dissension ..We end up slandering a Gohonzon ...in the way we talk of it ...emotions run high and it gets worse...Mara ..

This DaiGohonzon is all Nichiren's hand ???....whether it's carved or not does not matter to me..as long as it is pure Nichiren i'm ok ...
But how can you divide a gohonzon from the method by which its produced? For generations they were copied by hand, printed by blocks, eventually by presses; there are procedures and methods for composition. Before modern methods of duplication, for generations, the only way you could get a gohonzon was to have a priest copy one for you- or make one of his own; both methods are accepted. There are gohonzons painted onto silk, some have been cut down to fit into altars, hanging in temples for many decades- shall we disregard those? I'm not trying to make arguments of legitimacy- there is always more to the story.
I haven't made myself clear...
everything that you chant to you become like...yes no...chant to a fox and what happens? There are people in Japan especially business men who prefer chanting to a fox..

so we chant to Gohonzon to develop those qualities that lay latent or almost latent inside us.. like the god Indra or the god of life Brahma or Medicine Buddha...

so i do not want to develop the qualities of some High Priest ...if their sig is on the Gohonzon you develop their qualities...just like we develop the qualities of Nichiren Shonin..whom i trust implicitly .

now i don't have any issue with what a Gohonzon is depicted on, be it wood or silk or paper...

I'm using one on my computer screen...it's all i have..

I prefer the Shutei gohonzon for two things...it has a mistake on it , and this is the one Nichiren Shonin slept beside at mount Minobu..

so I know Nichiren Shonin inscribed this one and used it...

But come to me and say you need to go on a pilgrimage once in your lifetime to view a certain Gohonzon and it is like the grand daddy of all Gohonzons and certain benefits can only be had by chanting to this one even once in your lifetime...and this Gohonzon makes this sect superior for we have it...and all the other narratives that surround the mystique of this particular Gohonzon..

thats the stuff i don't dig.. i used to just knock it and say it is fake..It's not fake..it's a gohonzon .but it's the narrative surrounding it that i don't want any part of and i feel it causes some sort of wrong view about the whole practice...Some say this is the True Buddha Nichiren Daishonin's life and thats why once in your lifetime this is a must to chant to...tons of narratives that make like this is some super duper thing no other gohonzon will offer you...

if it was what people say it is and i was in control of it...out of compassion i would lend it out to various schools so they too can enjoy the narrative..like the Stanley Cup...
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:46 pm I haven't made myself clear...
everything that you chant to you become like...yes no...chant to a fox and what happens? There are people in Japan especially business men who prefer chanting to a fox..

so we chant to Gohonzon to develop those qualities that lay latent or almost latent inside us.. like the god Indra or the god of life Brahma or Medicine Buddha...

so i do not want to develop the qualities of some High Priest ...if their sig is on the Gohonzon you develop their qualities...just like we develop the qualities of Nichiren Shonin..whom i trust implicitly .
I heard the "you become like the gohonzon you chant to" argument also, back in the old NSA days at least- but where does that come from? It was told to me as an argument why it was so important to use the conferred Nichiren Shoshu gohonzon (as opposed to the other Nichiren sects). It was also used colloquially during schism as one of the reasons why we should switch to the SGI gohonzon (don't want to be involved with Nikken's life condition).

But in either case I don't recall ever hearing any basis for it- it was something that came up in conversation.
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:34 am
Minobu wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:46 pm I haven't made myself clear...
everything that you chant to you become like...yes no...chant to a fox and what happens? There are people in Japan especially business men who prefer chanting to a fox..

so we chant to Gohonzon to develop those qualities that lay latent or almost latent inside us.. like the god Indra or the god of life Brahma or Medicine Buddha...

so i do not want to develop the qualities of some High Priest ...if their sig is on the Gohonzon you develop their qualities...just like we develop the qualities of Nichiren Shonin..whom i trust implicitly .
I heard the "you become like the gohonzon you chant to" argument also, back in the old NSA days at least- but where does that come from? It was told to me as an argument why it was so important to use the conferred Nichiren Shoshu gohonzon (as opposed to the other Nichiren sects). It was also used colloquially during schism as one of the reasons why we should switch to the SGI gohonzon (don't want to be involved with Nikken's life condition).

But in either case I don't recall ever hearing any basis for it- it was something that came up in conversation.
well what you just posted is news to me...

and i did not say you become like the gohonzon...reread my post ...maybe the fox thing might make you realize what you are actually doing.....
what do you think Nichiren Shonin meant when he said when one chants it's like a bird singing in a cage attracting other birds?

you are literally hanging out with all those characters on Gohonzon...You want a high priest in the mix...it's up to you..i just want what Nichiren Shonin inscribed ...no extras...you end up paying the price in spades for extras....;)
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:46 am
narhwal90 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:34 am
Minobu wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 7:46 pm I haven't made myself clear...
everything that you chant to you become like...yes no...chant to a fox and what happens? There are people in Japan especially business men who prefer chanting to a fox..

so we chant to Gohonzon to develop those qualities that lay latent or almost latent inside us.. like the god Indra or the god of life Brahma or Medicine Buddha...

so i do not want to develop the qualities of some High Priest ...if their sig is on the Gohonzon you develop their qualities...just like we develop the qualities of Nichiren Shonin..whom i trust implicitly .
I heard the "you become like the gohonzon you chant to" argument also, back in the old NSA days at least- but where does that come from? It was told to me as an argument why it was so important to use the conferred Nichiren Shoshu gohonzon (as opposed to the other Nichiren sects). It was also used colloquially during schism as one of the reasons why we should switch to the SGI gohonzon (don't want to be involved with Nikken's life condition).

But in either case I don't recall ever hearing any basis for it- it was something that came up in conversation.
well what you just posted is news to me...

and i did not say you become like the gohonzon...reread my post ...maybe the fox thing might make you realize what you are actually doing.....
what do you think Nichiren Shonin meant when he said when one chants it's like a bird singing in a cage attracting other birds?

you are literally hanging out with all those characters on Gohonzon...You want a high priest in the mix...it's up to you..i just want what Nichiren Shonin inscribed ...no extras...you end up paying the price in spades for extras....;)
Ok, sure, then not "become like the gohonzon", instead "a high priest in the mix"- means about the same as far as I'm concerned- the idea being somehow some aspect of the author's life (priest or Nichiren, good or bad, depending on your perspective) conveys to the person chanting to it. Thats the kind of thing that was often talked about in conversation back in the NSA days, and early schism SGI. But where does the idea come from?

Maybe its Nichiren's "inscribed my life in sumi ink" thing. Back in the NSA days there was the proscription against photographing or otherwise imaging the gohonzon, it was explained to me that the reproduction is necessarily somehow less than the original but that idea seems a bit ill-defined to me.

Its the life condition that attracts the other birds. But I'm not trying to argue against anyone using whatever gohonzon suits them, I'm more interested in where ideas about gohonzons' power come from. I'm skeptical because we are also not to look for the gohonzon outside ourselves, yet I also find Nichiren's exclusivity on the point a bit of a turn-off.
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:28 am
Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:46 am
narhwal90 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:34 am

I heard the "you become like the gohonzon you chant to" argument also, back in the old NSA days at least- but where does that come from? It was told to me as an argument why it was so important to use the conferred Nichiren Shoshu gohonzon (as opposed to the other Nichiren sects). It was also used colloquially during schism as one of the reasons why we should switch to the SGI gohonzon (don't want to be involved with Nikken's life condition).

But in either case I don't recall ever hearing any basis for it- it was something that came up in conversation.
well what you just posted is news to me...

and i did not say you become like the gohonzon...reread my post ...maybe the fox thing might make you realize what you are actually doing.....
what do you think Nichiren Shonin meant when he said when one chants it's like a bird singing in a cage attracting other birds?

you are literally hanging out with all those characters on Gohonzon...You want a high priest in the mix...it's up to you..i just want what Nichiren Shonin inscribed ...no extras...you end up paying the price in spades for extras....;)
Ok, sure, then not "become like the gohonzon", instead "a high priest in the mix"- means about the same as far as I'm concerned- the idea being somehow some aspect of the author's life (priest or Nichiren, good or bad, depending on your perspective) conveys to the person chanting to it. Thats the kind of thing that was often talked about in conversation back in the NSA days, and early schism SGI. But where does the idea come from?

Maybe its Nichiren's "inscribed my life in sumi ink" thing. Back in the NSA days there was the proscription against photographing or otherwise imaging the gohonzon, it was explained to me that the reproduction is necessarily somehow less than the original but that idea seems a bit ill-defined to me.

Its the life condition that attracts the other birds. But I'm not trying to argue against anyone using whatever gohonzon suits them, I'm more interested in where ideas about gohonzons' power come from. I'm skeptical because we are also not to look for the gohonzon outside ourselves, yet I also find Nichiren's exclusivity on the point a bit of a turn-off.
you have every right to accuse me of getting this idea from gakki or whoever.it's a free world..but i did not come to this conclusion based on gakki or NSA..i'm actually Canadian and never went to NSA meetings..

The concept is from my own understanding of what we do..you are Namu'ing the gohonzon...everything on it , even the stuff you have no idea about..
We were never told that Lord Brahma and Lord Indra were on the gohonzon...and yet their qualities are reinforced and manifested with every chanting session with a gohonzon which has them inscribed on it....

so don't accuse me of this dispute crap ...it's your life with the organization that brings you to this conclusion about where i get my intuition on the subject..Your narratives are skewed with hatred..
i don't see how i am wrong...the only people that want to play ostrich in the sand are people that have this dispute still happening in their life...like you...you just proved that this has not gone away...
do yourself a favour and start practicing with the Original teaching...

do you have any idea what it's like to sit in front of a Gohonzon that you know is solely of Nichiren Shonin's volition.


oh hey ! just thought of this , thanks for helping me come to this conclusion just now ...

What about Nichiren Shonin's signature...do you not think that brings you closer to his life condition...what about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna , and Dengyo ..it's ok to say that there life condition influences you whilst deep in a chanting session with gohonzon..

So like when i use the online version on the left side is some characters to tell you which one it is ...i guess it's not in english...it's not part of Gohonzon , so i erased it...Did i do due to the gakki and ShoShu power struggles...

feel like i need a friggin lawyer to defend myself whilst discussing with you now. :rolleye:


I actually just recalled when i first came up with this ....it was back on the forum with Reverend Ryui and the independence movement..i posted my ideas about it ,and he went bonkers..calling me a douche bag ... which carried over from some troll on "QQ"'s site ichinen sanzen ...he would say i really am a douche bag..
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

maybe i'm the guy that initiated this and NSA and gakki jumped on it to use it in their hatred campaign...
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:14 pm

you have every right to accuse me of getting this idea from gakki or whoever.it's a free world..but i did not come to this conclusion based on gakki or NSA..i'm actually Canadian and never went to NSA meetings..

The concept is from my own understanding of what we do..you are Namu'ing the gohonzon...everything on it , even the stuff you have no idea about..
We were never told that Lord Brahma and Lord Indra were on the gohonzon...and yet their qualities are reinforced and manifested with every chanting session with a gohonzon which has them inscribed on it....

so don't accuse me of this dispute crap ...it's your life with the organization that brings you to this conclusion about where i get my intuition on the subject..Your narratives are skewed with hatred..
i don't see how i am wrong...the only people that want to play ostrich in the sand are people that have this dispute still happening in their life...like you...you just proved that this has not gone away...
do yourself a favour and start practicing with the Original teaching...

do you have any idea what it's like to sit in front of a Gohonzon that you know is solely of Nichiren Shonin's volition.


oh hey ! just thought of this , thanks for helping me come to this conclusion just now ...

What about Nichiren Shonin's signature...do you not think that brings you closer to his life condition...what about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna , and Dengyo ..it's ok to say that there life condition influences you whilst deep in a chanting session with gohonzon..

So like when i use the online version on the left side is some characters to tell you which one it is ...i guess it's not in english...it's not part of Gohonzon , so i erased it...Did i do due to the gakki and ShoShu power struggles...

feel like i need a friggin lawyer to defend myself whilst discussing with you now. :rolleye:


I actually just recalled when i first came up with this ....it was back on the forum with Reverend Ryui and the independence movement..i posted my ideas about it ,and he went bonkers..calling me a douche bag ... which carried over from some troll on "QQ"'s site ichinen sanzen ...he would say i really am a douche bag..
lol, not accusing you of anything, nor trying to change your mind. What interests me about this is your intuition- that particular view, that something of the author's life condition conveys to someone chanting to a gohonzon. Something very similar was around back in the day.. it was often and openly discussed and was held (maybe still is) but no-one to my recollection provided even a good argument. Back in Nichiren's day some original gohonzons were carried by their owners as talismans against misfortune, I know some SGI folks who carry omamori gohonzons the same way. Perhaps conferral of the author's life condition via chanting to the gohonzon is not a dissimilar view.

I don't know what Nagarjuna's, Dengyo's life conditions were or are.. I have enough difficulty keeping track of mine. But I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Perhaps this is only my skeptical reflex in action. For my part the best gohonzon to have is the one that you want to sit down in front of and chant to.
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:45 pm
Minobu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:14 pm

you have every right to accuse me of getting this idea from gakki or whoever.it's a free world..but i did not come to this conclusion based on gakki or NSA..i'm actually Canadian and never went to NSA meetings..

The concept is from my own understanding of what we do..you are Namu'ing the gohonzon...everything on it , even the stuff you have no idea about..
We were never told that Lord Brahma and Lord Indra were on the gohonzon...and yet their qualities are reinforced and manifested with every chanting session with a gohonzon which has them inscribed on it....

so don't accuse me of this dispute crap ...it's your life with the organization that brings you to this conclusion about where i get my intuition on the subject..Your narratives are skewed with hatred..
i don't see how i am wrong...the only people that want to play ostrich in the sand are people that have this dispute still happening in their life...like you...you just proved that this has not gone away...
do yourself a favour and start practicing with the Original teaching...

do you have any idea what it's like to sit in front of a Gohonzon that you know is solely of Nichiren Shonin's volition.


oh hey ! just thought of this , thanks for helping me come to this conclusion just now ...

What about Nichiren Shonin's signature...do you not think that brings you closer to his life condition...what about Lord Buddha Nagarjuna , and Dengyo ..it's ok to say that there life condition influences you whilst deep in a chanting session with gohonzon..

So like when i use the online version on the left side is some characters to tell you which one it is ...i guess it's not in english...it's not part of Gohonzon , so i erased it...Did i do due to the gakki and ShoShu power struggles...

feel like i need a friggin lawyer to defend myself whilst discussing with you now. :rolleye:


I actually just recalled when i first came up with this ....it was back on the forum with Reverend Ryui and the independence movement..i posted my ideas about it ,and he went bonkers..calling me a douche bag ... which carried over from some troll on "QQ"'s site ichinen sanzen ...he would say i really am a douche bag..
lol, not accusing you of anything, nor trying to change your mind. What interests me about this is your intuition- that particular view, that something of the author's life condition conveys to someone chanting to a gohonzon. Something very similar was around back in the day.. it was often and openly discussed and was held (maybe still is) but no-one to my recollection provided even a good argument. Back in Nichiren's day some original gohonzons were carried by their owners as talismans against misfortune, I know some SGI folks who carry omamori gohonzons the same way. Perhaps conferral of the author's life condition via chanting to the gohonzon is not a dissimilar view.

I don't know what Nagarjuna's, Dengyo's life conditions were or are.. I have enough difficulty keeping track of mine. But I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

Perhaps this is only my skeptical reflex in action. For my part the best gohonzon to have is the one that you want to sit down in front of and chant to.
What interests me about this is your intuition- that particular view, that something of the author's life condition conveys to someone chanting to a gohonzon.

i don't view any of the persons depicted on gohonzon as an author... I'm just saying like hanging around a bad friend or a good friend ...they rub off on you...in the case of something like the Gohonzon , and actually chanting Nam MyoHo RenGe Kyo to it, with it , everything on the Gohonzon becomes a catalyst ...be careful what you decide to Chant Nam MyoHo RenGe Kyo to...

have you ever heard about people chanting the ODaimoku to a picture of a fox...and the stories that go along with it..

i cannot find it on google but here is something....people from Japan would know what i am talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inari_%C5 ... %8Ckami%20
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by tkp67 »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:35 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:21 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:44 am There are a lot of directions that just don't make any sense and are not worth the time exploring. That might just be me, though.
In the context of the lotus sutra it makes perfect sense. In the context of Nichiren's teachings it makes perfect sense. In the context of Shakyamuni's complete, supreme and perfect enlightenment it makes sense.
What makes sense?
The interpretative diversity among Nichiren interests. It is a simply reflection of cause, conditions and capacities. Expecting homogeneous cause, conditions and capacities is pure delusion.
QQ wrote:
tkp67 wrote: All of this is to simply say they did not begrudge any mind regardless of affliction. Only we do that.
Who's not begrudging what?
No buddha begrudged the supposed ignorance of others, only ordinary humans who deny their own buddha nature and the buddha nature of others do this.
QQ wrote:
tkp67 wrote:All of this is also simply to say why have a bias against the unknown regarding a teaching that requires a certain reverence for fellow practitioners regardless of differences.
What the heck are you talking about? I've tried to parse that, and I'm at a loss.
It is very simple. I said how can anyone judge the various ways of disseminating these teachings without understanding them first and you made a comment regarding the potential of this as being meaningless. That in and of itself disparages those who hold those views without the relevant wisdom to correct why it is wrong.

It is also a strawman argument which I display later by pointing out that Nichiren made it clear that this sutra was to be the measure of such things, not the opinions of ordinary people. That is the whole point, one does not need penetrating wisdom to transcend difference when the sutra itself is a proof to measure such things against. This will become more clear as I answer below.
QQ wrote:
tkp67 wrote:"why have a bias against the unknown regarding a teaching that requires a certain reverence for fellow practitioners regardless of differences."
Something can't be "unknown" and yet "require" something. And who are you saying has a bias?
There is a reason the lotus can only be entered by faith. The sutra and Nichiren put a premium on the dangers of doubt. I am not saying that one should not question things but questioning others without doing due diligence first will never solve this problem, only exasperate it.

Whether Nichiren is considered a sage, a Bodhisattva of the earth, a votary of the Lotus Sutra, a thus come one or any of the designations purposed by various interests this does not in and of itself slander the teaching.

In order to make this judgement one needs to understand where the teaching fails. Nichiren didn't say that simply means people have no idea what the outcome of pointing these designations really means. This was the very point I made to Mark.

If anyone have such proof then preach it from Eagle's peak for the benefit of all. I do think it can be EASILY reasoned from the sutra and the writings themselves. Which is why I relentlessly question when people make such propositions.
QQ wrote:
tkp67 wrote:It seems to me the Lotus teachings are to abolish these subtle biases in the process of revealing the true or it simply will never happen.
What does that mean? What "subtle biases"? What process? What do you mean by "revealing the true"?
Subtle biases such as the bounds of inequality. Our buddha nature or the tenth world is an inseparable aspect of our existence. It is however deniable.

Revealing the "true" is to discard the provisional. Nichiren specifically points out that the Shakyamuni of the life span chapter is the essence of this sutra. He also point out Shakyamuni discards the provision to reveal the true aspect which is the tenth realm. Supreme, complete and absolutely perfect enlightenment.

The daimoku possesses this trait as well. The profundity of this statement cannot be expressed in words. Myoho Renge Kyo is the true aspect of all phenomenon and the true aspect of all phenomenon are only understood by buddha. Because we ordinary humans speak it in a living moment this proves it is endowed and in possession of all ten realms.
QQ wrote:
tkp67 wrote:The assembly at the lotus and the opening of the eyes is critical here as is the moment. The later the absolute basis of "true buddhism". An unspoken basis cannot be used to achieve understanding across differences in perspectives.
I'm sorry, no way to say this except, that is gibberish.
[/quote]

Try reading it again. If you do you might notice that all people in attendance are not equal to shaklyamuni yet shakyamuni reveals in essence that this is simply a matter of realization because he already foresaw their buddhahood.

What Nichiren is pointing to is that the lotus is to be taught "as is" I can dig up the reference I posted to Mark. It was poignant enough I never got a response because it simply means that all those at the assembly (and thus votary) are to discard all differences and practice under the mantle of Shakyamuni's complete, supreme and perfect enlightenment.

Not a doctrine of doubt that betrays the golden words of both Shakyamuni and Nichiren. A doctrine that is driven by the devil of the sixth heaven..

I will gladly unpack my perspective on how these various perspectives of the Nichiren interests hold up against the writings and the Lotus Sutra and why the biases against them are counter productive.
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Shoho »

tkp67
Hello
Are you able to read medieval Chinese and medieval Japanese?
Gassho
Shoho
‘Do you really know what you know you know?’
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by tkp67 »

No. Neither can I read any of the languages the sutras themselves where written in. While language may be limited the concepts, like the gohonzon represent functions observable within one's own life. Thankfully the practice is perfectly suited to condition, cause and capacity.
Shoho wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:28 pm tkp67
Hello
Are you able to read medieval Chinese and medieval Japanese?
Gassho
Shoho
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Shoho »

“While language may be limited the concepts, like the gohonzon represent functions observable within one's own life. Thankfully the practice is perfectly suited to condition, cause and capacity.”

This is a comment written by a friend of mine. I feel it is necessary to post it here.

“ The problem with your approach in practice is you can’t read Nichirens writings in the original form.
His writings are in medieval Chinese and Japanese.
You therefore have to rely on translations and that causes you all sorts of problems obvious and not so obvious.
Understanding Nichiren also requires a broad understanding of Nichirens context,particularly the sources he was drawing on, the contemporary ideas and practices of his time, and the socio-political environment.
Understanding Nichiren is not as easy as just picking up his works in translation and taking them literally based on what you bring to the table.
You seem to think that reading Nichiren necessitate any special learning.
As a consequence you are just reading a reflection of your own mind.
It would be one thing if you were to proceed with a tentative reliance on your sources, but you don’t.
You seem to proclaim the infallibility of your interpretation and make snarky comments.
You are broadcasting your ignorant approach to the world.
Faith is commendable, but without learning you are just doubling down on whatever object of ignorance you form in your mind.
If Nichirens can be summed up in a word I would suggest rissho (立正)(establishing the truth) as in 立正安国倫
If you actually read and understood Japanese, you would understand how solemn and serious that word is.
Yours is at best a caricature of rissho.”
Gassho
正法
‘Do you really know what you know you know?’
Daevid Allen-Gong
tkp67
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by tkp67 »

Thankfully these teachings are to be held to the 4 standards and not cultural paradigms. All of his teachings can be validated through the lotus sutra itself. It seems a grave denigration upon Nichiren's legacy to paint him as stingy. He did not limit these teachings to a specific cause, condition, capacity, language, and such. The only qualifying condition is the time. Necessitating skillful use of foreign medevil languages does not reflect this teaching's equanimity. The reality of myoho renge kyo is that denying it does not negate it.

His stern words and methods at the time of his existence were a reflection of the land and the people he served. It might help to consider medieval times are past and this is the information age. He did not propose propagating his teachings among the mongols at the time yet these teachings now transcend the prospect of national religion. This is possibly because he was a true votary of the lotus. The Lotus came from India. The law that governs all sentient beings.

In fact one can make the argument that it is impossible to navigate these teachings through understanding outside of faith. Nichiren himself points this out. He stated his capacities paled in comparison to past greats like tentai except for his faith.

It really sounds like a terrible straw man argument that underlines an inability to articulate these teachings past a very specific demographic. If someone really understands them they should possess the ability of a sage minimally and be able to articulate them to some variety of mine other than one's own. Even Bodhisattva never disparage exemplified this behavior as human being.
Shoho
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Shoho »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm Thankfully these teachings are to be held to the 4 standards and not cultural paradigms. All of his teachings can be validated through the lotus sutra itself. It seems a grave denigration upon Nichiren's legacy to paint him as stingy. He did not limit these teachings to a specific cause, condition, capacity, language, and such. The only qualifying condition is the time. Necessitating skillful use of foreign medevil languages does not reflect this teaching's equanimity. The reality of myoho renge kyo is that denying it does not negate it.

His stern words and methods at the time of his existence were a reflection of the land and the people he served. It might help to consider medieval times are past and this is the information age. He did not propose propagating his teachings among the mongols at the time yet these teachings now transcend the prospect of national religion. This is possibly because he was a true votary of the lotus. The Lotus came from India. The law that governs all sentient beings.

In fact one can make the argument that it is impossible to navigate these teachings through understanding outside of faith. Nichiren himself points this out. He stated his capacities paled in comparison to past greats like tentai except for his faith.

It really sounds like a terrible straw man argument that underlines an inability to articulate these teachings past a very specific demographic. If someone really understands them they should possess the ability of a sage minimally and be able to articulate them to some variety of mine other than one's own. Even Bodhisattva never disparage exemplified this behavior as human being.

You need to overcome your attachment to your self satisfied understanding. It is one of the 14 slanders.
What you read in the translations has confused you. The are not the correct translations.
The Lotus Sutra you quote is not a complete explanation. Only the Daimoku is.
The daiji kyo explains that in mappo the great pure law will supersede the Lotus Sutra. This is the basis for the fourfold rise and fall.
Gassho
正法
‘Do you really know what you know you know?’
Daevid Allen-Gong
tkp67
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Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by tkp67 »

Shoho wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:47 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:57 pm Thankfully these teachings are to be held to the 4 standards and not cultural paradigms. All of his teachings can be validated through the lotus sutra itself. It seems a grave denigration upon Nichiren's legacy to paint him as stingy. He did not limit these teachings to a specific cause, condition, capacity, language, and such. The only qualifying condition is the time. Necessitating skillful use of foreign medevil languages does not reflect this teaching's equanimity. The reality of myoho renge kyo is that denying it does not negate it.

His stern words and methods at the time of his existence were a reflection of the land and the people he served. It might help to consider medieval times are past and this is the information age. He did not propose propagating his teachings among the mongols at the time yet these teachings now transcend the prospect of national religion. This is possibly because he was a true votary of the lotus. The Lotus came from India. The law that governs all sentient beings.

In fact one can make the argument that it is impossible to navigate these teachings through understanding outside of faith. Nichiren himself points this out. He stated his capacities paled in comparison to past greats like tentai except for his faith.

It really sounds like a terrible straw man argument that underlines an inability to articulate these teachings past a very specific demographic. If someone really understands them they should possess the ability of a sage minimally and be able to articulate them to some variety of mine other than one's own. Even Bodhisattva never disparage exemplified this behavior as human being.

You need to overcome your attachment to your self satisfied understanding. It is one of the 14 slanders.
What you read in the translations has confused you. The are not the correct translations.
The Lotus Sutra you quote is not a complete explanation. Only the Daimoku is.
The daiji kyo explains that in mappo the great pure law will supersede the Lotus Sutra. This is the basis for the fourfold rise and fall.
Gassho
正法
You assume my confidence in the sutra and the daimoku are in and of themselves self satisfaction yet you do not even know me intimately enough to know as much.

Confidence/faith are the basis for these practices.

I now insist you expose my delusion by

a) proving my malignant intent and understanding through the words I have provided thus far.

b) illustrating the perversion in the teachings (translations) that led to such failure.

c) proving proof that my expression of these teachings is not in accord with my causes, capacities and conditions.
tkp67
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by tkp67 »

Nichiren teaches (as do most traditions) that Maitreya will be the next Buddha (see Gosho On Prayer). Contrary to what Toda, SGI, Nichiren Shoshu, and you teach, the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren teach a One (Original Eternal) Buddha Doctrine and his Identity is Shakyamuni Buddha of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra. That you follow the teachings of Toda rather than the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren is cause for regret.
https://markrogow.blogspot.com/2018/06/ ... uddha.html

This underlines the conflict being discussed however it does so at the cost of other tenants within both Shakyamuni's and Nichiren's teachings.

I will gladly unpack this claim.

Remember we are to practice as one mind transcending all differences and the one common denominator I contest here is that the teachings are put against each other in word but not as observed through cause and effect.

The conflict stated above exist in the mind of ordinary people but does it exist in the mind of the buddha? This is to say can one guarantee the outcome of those perceptive differences at arriving at the same destination through direct application. The very notion betrays dynamics of buddhism itself so we can't make that ascertain thus the use of it is a denigration of practice.
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Minobu
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

this is all to DELETED up for me...waste of time...

MOD NOTE: Please refrain from the use of coarse language.
tkp67
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by tkp67 »

Cognitive dissonance is meant to be dissolved not evoked though these seemingly irreconcilable differences because cognitive dissonance is a symptom of adhering to duality. The middle way does not abide to duality.
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Minobu
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Re: when Taisekiji first stated original Buddha and dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 4:46 pm Cognitive dissonance is meant to be dissolved not evoked though these seemingly irreconcilable differences because cognitive dissonance is a symptom of adhering to duality. The middle way does not abide to duality.
you are well above my pay grade...i seldom know where they hell you are coming from..it's like i'm on mars...
:bow:
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