Contradicting sutras

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Zhen Li
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by Zhen Li » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:13 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:44 pm
Zhen Li wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:12 pm
Oops, I seem to have quoted the wrong vows, but yes, the Sanskrit recension that Müller is using is, as far as I can tell, the same as whatever Nepalese manuscript Vaidya was using. There are different manuscripts certainly, but I don't think the 46 and 47 difference is a major one—it may be a division of a vow into more than one section. The only significant differences in vows are when we start comparing Zhi Qian, Lokaksema, Bodhiruci and Sanghavarman's translations. There was a very good article that did thus, but after searching for half an hour I can't seem to find it now.
Would love to see that article if you find it. Gomez does do a bit of a survey in his book.
Tables 4-8 at the end of Gomez' book is pretty close to the content of that article.

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cj39
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by cj39 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:15 am

I take the 'exclusion' as something probably inserted to discourage 'licensed evil', the idea that we can do anything we want since we will be born in the Pure Land any way. It is also perhaps pertinent to point out that it is incosistent within the context of the rest of the Larger Sutra. For instance the Second Fascicle contains the verse:

"18. By the power of that Buddha's Original Vows,
All who hear his Name and desire birth,
Will, without exception, be born in his land
And effortlessly enter the Stage of Non-retrogression."

And since all pretty much means, well, all, that includes those who violate the grave precepts. In the Juseige (or Shiseige) there is also a verse which reads:

"3. When I attain Buddhahood,
My Name shall be heard throughout the ten quarters;
Should there be any place where it is not heard,
May I not attain perfect Enlightenment."

Assuming that this Amida Buddha's intent is to do more than provide elevator music for the hell realms, my understanding is that the nembutsu is effective everywhere for beings in all states. There doesn't seem to be an exclusion if one is guilty of breaking a grave precept or currently suffering in the lowermost hell.

Ricky
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by Ricky » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:31 am

cj39 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:15 am
I take the 'exclusion' as something probably inserted to discourage 'licensed evil', the idea that we can do anything we want since we will be born in the Pure Land any way. It is also perhaps pertinent to point out that it is incosistent within the context of the rest of the Larger Sutra. For instance the Second Fascicle contains the verse:

"18. By the power of that Buddha's Original Vows,
All who hear his Name and desire birth,
Will, without exception, be born in his land
And effortlessly enter the Stage of Non-retrogression."

And since all pretty much means, well, all, that includes those who violate the grave precepts. In the Juseige (or Shiseige) there is also a verse which reads:

"3. When I attain Buddhahood,
My Name shall be heard throughout the ten quarters;
Should there be any place where it is not heard,
May I not attain perfect Enlightenment."

Assuming that this Amida Buddha's intent is to do more than provide elevator music for the hell realms, my understanding is that the nembutsu is effective everywhere for beings in all states. There doesn't seem to be an exclusion if one is guilty of breaking a grave precept or currently suffering in the lowermost hell.
Let's hope so. :good:

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cj39
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by cj39 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:51 pm

The five grave offenses include things like killing ones parents, drawing the blood of a Buddha, causing a monk our nun to fall, or creating a schism within the Sangha. With the exception of the last one, these are fairly easy to avoid.

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Malcolm
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:48 pm

cj39 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:51 pm
The five grave offenses include things like killing ones parents, drawing the blood of a Buddha, causing a monk our nun to fall, or creating a schism within the Sangha. With the exception of the last one, these are fairly easy to avoid.
The last one is extremely easy to avoid since a schism in the Sangha (sanghabheda) can only be committed by a fully ordained bhikṣu.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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cj39
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by cj39 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:38 am

[/quote]
The last one is extremely easy to avoid since a schism in the Sangha (sanghabheda) can only be committed by a fully ordained bhikṣu.
[/quote]

I did not know that. In that case, I am all set.

vikas113
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by vikas113 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:56 am

Ricky wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:18 pm
From what I understand the 18th vow states that those who commit the five great sins and slander the teachings will not take birth in the pure land but in other sutras such as the contemplation sutra it is stated that they can. What is the reason for this contradiction and how to resolve it?
First, I am sharing my views and have no intention of misrepresenting the Buddha or the Dhamma. Buddhas never lie much less that they can speak in contradiction. Even the one sentence they speak can be explained in kotis of different ways. A kalpa may end but the Buddha explaining that one sentence will not run out of explanations.
As the empty space is inconceivable, The liberation power of the Buddhas, their eloquence in teaching the dhamma and their merits are inconceivable and can't be grasped by deluded beings like us.
The Dhamma taught by the Buddha is subtle and pure, So how can beings attached to false views can understand what the Buddha says.

In the contemplation sutra, Sakyamuni Buddha states that
A low rebirth in the low rank can be achieved by sentient beings that have done bad karmas, such as any of the five rebellious acts or the ten evil karmas. Because of their evil karmas, these fools should go down the evil life-paths to undergo endless suffering for many kalpas. But when such a fool’s life is ending, he may encounter a beneficent learned friend who will comfort him in many ways, expound the wondrous Dharma, and teach him to think of that Buddha. However, this person, overcome by suffering, will be unable to think of that Buddha. His beneficent friend will then tell him, ‘If you are unable to think of that Buddha, you should say that you take refuge in Amitāyus Buddha. Say it earnestly and keep your voice uninterrupted as you say “namo Amitāyus Buddha” ten times in ten thoughts.’ By saying Amitāyus Buddha's name, thought after thought, his sins which would entail 80 koṭi kalpas of birth and death will all be expunged. When his life is ending, he will see a golden lotus flower appearing before him like the sun.
“In the instant of a thought, he will be reborn in the Land of Ultimate Bliss. He will remain in the lotus flower for twelve large kalpas. When the lotus flower opens, Bodhisattvas Avalokiteśvara and Great Might Arrived, with tones of great compassion, will expound to him the true reality of dharmas and the Dharma for expunging sins.
In this passage, The Buddha mentions that the person who does 5 rebellious karmas or 10 evil karmas will be born in the land of the ultimate bliss but will be enclosed in a lotus flower for 12 large kalpas. Actually, that evil person though by the merits and vows of the Tathagata is born in Pureland, but from his perspective, from his view, he is not in Pureland because he is enclosed in a lotus flower and is unable to see Amitabha Buddha, the 2 Great Bodhisattva Mahasattvas and the holy assembly. He is unable to see the glory of the land of bliss along with its celestial trees, palaces of 7 treasure, ponds with water of 8 sublime virtues, heavens. He is unable to roam freely and exercise wonderful supernormal powers which is available to all the bodhisattvas living there. He is unable to visit kotis of Buddhas in the 10 direction for 12 large kalpas. In the same way because of the evil kammas he loose great benefits of pureland for 12 large kalpas.

So although he is actually born in an enclosed lotus in the Pureland and his body and mind are at peace, not at all suffering in that lotus, due to losing all the above benefits and not being able to see Amitabha and his holy assembly, he is said to be a person not born in the land of Ultimate Bliss which is what according to me is 18th vow of Amitabha Buddha and I see no contradiction in it at all.

After 12 large kalpas, 2 great ones Avalokiteshwara Bodhisattva-Mahasattva and Mahasthaprapta Bodhisattva Mahasattva will expound them the ture dharmas which will expunge their sins and make them feel peaceful.

Such great are the vows and compassion of all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that even such evil people can be born in pureland which surpasses even the heavens of all 10 directions.

Buddha's liberation power and vows are vast. They never lie nor speak contradictory words. Those who will sincerely recite Amitabha's name with a wish to be reborn in his pureland will definitely be born there. It is impossible for Buddha's vow to fail.

A small stone may sink without any support in the great ocean but mighty rocks will float and cross the great ocean by the support of a great ship.
The great ship here is Amitabha and his vows and the mighty rock is the evil person who is foolish to do evil karmas.

This doesn't mean that we should do evil kammas and keep on chanting Amitabha. Doing evil in this world and avoiding percepts will make our status in the Pureland in the lower ranks of the Pureland. Also, the evil karma may manifest in this life itself and can make us suffer miserably in this life before attaining rebirth in the Pureland. We may suffer from fractures, paralysis, imprisonment, deadly depression, accidents or our condition can become such that we neither can live nor die. So it is better to avoid all evil and do only good karmas according to the Buddha's teaching.

Having medicine doesn't mean that we should eat poison. The same way we should try avoiding all evil while chanting Amitabha for Pureland rebirth.

Even in the Kistigarbha Sutra, There is a story that during the dhamma image age of Enlightenment-Flower Samadhi Self-Mastery King Buddha, Kistigarbha Bodhisattva was born as a Brahmin girl who was a Buddhist but her mother often slandered the Buddha, the dhamma, and the Sangha and was born in hells after her death. The brahmin girl made offerings to the Buddha stupas and Sangha and rescued her mother and made her born in the heaven. Also, other suffering beings in the hell were born because of the merit of the filial brahmin girl.

Such is the power of merits of Buddhas.

So please don't think that the two sutras are contradictory. Those who sincerely repent of evils and wish to be born in Pureland and chant Amitabha's name will get born in Pureland.

Namo Amitabha Buddha! :bow: :bow: :bow:

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