Contradicting sutras

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Zhen Li
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by Zhen Li » Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:13 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:44 pm
Zhen Li wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:12 pm
Oops, I seem to have quoted the wrong vows, but yes, the Sanskrit recension that Müller is using is, as far as I can tell, the same as whatever Nepalese manuscript Vaidya was using. There are different manuscripts certainly, but I don't think the 46 and 47 difference is a major one—it may be a division of a vow into more than one section. The only significant differences in vows are when we start comparing Zhi Qian, Lokaksema, Bodhiruci and Sanghavarman's translations. There was a very good article that did thus, but after searching for half an hour I can't seem to find it now.
Would love to see that article if you find it. Gomez does do a bit of a survey in his book.
Tables 4-8 at the end of Gomez' book is pretty close to the content of that article.

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cj39
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by cj39 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:15 am

I take the 'exclusion' as something probably inserted to discourage 'licensed evil', the idea that we can do anything we want since we will be born in the Pure Land any way. It is also perhaps pertinent to point out that it is incosistent within the context of the rest of the Larger Sutra. For instance the Second Fascicle contains the verse:

"18. By the power of that Buddha's Original Vows,
All who hear his Name and desire birth,
Will, without exception, be born in his land
And effortlessly enter the Stage of Non-retrogression."

And since all pretty much means, well, all, that includes those who violate the grave precepts. In the Juseige (or Shiseige) there is also a verse which reads:

"3. When I attain Buddhahood,
My Name shall be heard throughout the ten quarters;
Should there be any place where it is not heard,
May I not attain perfect Enlightenment."

Assuming that this Amida Buddha's intent is to do more than provide elevator music for the hell realms, my understanding is that the nembutsu is effective everywhere for beings in all states. There doesn't seem to be an exclusion if one is guilty of breaking a grave precept or currently suffering in the lowermost hell.

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Ricky
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by Ricky » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:31 am

cj39 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:15 am
I take the 'exclusion' as something probably inserted to discourage 'licensed evil', the idea that we can do anything we want since we will be born in the Pure Land any way. It is also perhaps pertinent to point out that it is incosistent within the context of the rest of the Larger Sutra. For instance the Second Fascicle contains the verse:

"18. By the power of that Buddha's Original Vows,
All who hear his Name and desire birth,
Will, without exception, be born in his land
And effortlessly enter the Stage of Non-retrogression."

And since all pretty much means, well, all, that includes those who violate the grave precepts. In the Juseige (or Shiseige) there is also a verse which reads:

"3. When I attain Buddhahood,
My Name shall be heard throughout the ten quarters;
Should there be any place where it is not heard,
May I not attain perfect Enlightenment."

Assuming that this Amida Buddha's intent is to do more than provide elevator music for the hell realms, my understanding is that the nembutsu is effective everywhere for beings in all states. There doesn't seem to be an exclusion if one is guilty of breaking a grave precept or currently suffering in the lowermost hell.
Let's hope so. :good:

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cj39
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by cj39 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:51 pm

The five grave offenses include things like killing ones parents, drawing the blood of a Buddha, causing a monk our nun to fall, or creating a schism within the Sangha. With the exception of the last one, these are fairly easy to avoid.

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Malcolm
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by Malcolm » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:48 pm

cj39 wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:51 pm
The five grave offenses include things like killing ones parents, drawing the blood of a Buddha, causing a monk our nun to fall, or creating a schism within the Sangha. With the exception of the last one, these are fairly easy to avoid.
The last one is extremely easy to avoid since a schism in the Sangha (sanghabheda) can only be committed by a fully ordained bhikṣu.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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cj39
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Re: Contradicting sutras

Post by cj39 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:38 am

[/quote]
The last one is extremely easy to avoid since a schism in the Sangha (sanghabheda) can only be committed by a fully ordained bhikṣu.
[/quote]

I did not know that. In that case, I am all set.

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