Jodo Shu vs. Jodo Shinshu

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doublerepukken
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Jodo Shu vs. Jodo Shinshu

Post by doublerepukken » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:19 am

Hey All,

After doing my own research, I still am not totally clear on what the difference between the two is. Any help or pointing to resources would be greatly appreciated.

Ethan
南無阿弥陀仏
なむ あみだ ぶつ
Namu Amida Butsu

shaunc
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Re: Jodo Shu vs. Jodo Shinshu

Post by shaunc » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:33 am

Please double check anything that you get from me but I'll try my best as I understand it.
Honen= jodo shu. Taught the nembutsu was the way to Amida's western pureland. Kannon and Seishi boddhisatvas are well honored.
Shinran=jodo shinshu. A disciple of Honen. Also taught the nembutsu was the way to Amida's western pureland.
The number of nembutsus spoken is not as important as the faith behind it. Kannon and Seishi boddhisatvas are not as highly regarded because it is believed that by honouring Amida through the saying of the nembutsu all other buddhas and boddhisatvas are also honored.
Both of these monks were revolutionary for their times. It's my personal belief that shinran never set out to form his own sect but saw himself as simply carrying on Honen's tradition.
Good luck and best wishes.
Namu Amida Butsu.
Shaun.

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: Jodo Shu vs. Jodo Shinshu

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:43 pm

The divisions seem mostly modern.

That said some differences do seem to exist, mostly in emphasis. Honen stressed the threefold devotional heart like Shandao, Shinran stressed shinjin. Honen stressed process like taking our karma along to the Pure Land, Shinran stressed result like non-retrogression guaranteeing buddhahood. Honen stressed nembutsu as a path towards faith, Shinran stressed faith as a path towards nembutsu.

As for some things presented in Shin books today, that's a whole other kettle of fish :)

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doublerepukken
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Re: Jodo Shu vs. Jodo Shinshu

Post by doublerepukken » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:36 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:43 pm
The divisions seem mostly modern.

That said some differences do seem to exist, mostly in emphasis. Honen stressed the threefold devotional heart like Shandao, Shinran stressed shinjin. Honen stressed process like taking our karma along to the Pure Land, Shinran stressed result like non-retrogression guaranteeing buddhahood. Honen stressed nembutsu as a path towards faith, Shinran stressed faith as a path towards nembutsu.

As for some things presented in Shin books today, that's a whole other kettle of fish :)
Monlam Tharchin,

Thanks for your reply, could you expand more on faith as a path towards nembutsu vs. the opposite?
南無阿弥陀仏
なむ あみだ ぶつ
Namu Amida Butsu

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: Jodo Shu vs. Jodo Shinshu

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:43 pm

Sure. Honen often said we should recite nembutsu in our current state. While he naturally stressed understanding and having faith in Amida's vows, in several places he exhorts us to recite with the simplest aspiration to go to the Pure Land regardless of any "aberrant views" or the gravity of our negative karma.

The threefold devotional heart is also described in ways that suggest we can and should deliberately cultivate it, and that the act of reciting nembutsu supports our efforts, like a positive feedback loop.

So Honen can be seen as providing a path for faith.

This to my view slightly from shinjin, which one is to receive from Amida with no cultivation from the aspirant. But since nembutsu arises in gratitude for shinjin, it doesn't provide a path for faith or support it. It takes faith as the starting point for nembutsu.

If one misunderstands this teaching, it can cause some anxiety, "I better not recite nembutsu unless it's from gratitude and I better not recite too often or it'll mean I'm cultivating and relying on self-power." I think this is taking shinjin on its own instead of with the backdrop of Masters Honen's and Shandao's teachings.

In my own opinion, shinjin can be the expression of the profound heart, one aspect of the threefold devotional heart. That is, we want to grow in confidence and faith that Amida is trustworthy and that the practice works. That simultaneously makes us want to recite nembutsu more deeply and more often. And this faith is based on the qualities and worthiness of Amida, not our own good roots, so in a sense it's "received" like shinjin.

Really faith is important while reciting nembutsu. That's what both Honen and Shinran taught.

You can find some of Honen's words on faith in Amida in the Misconceptions thread.

Hopefully PC can chime in too since he's more familiar with Shinran than I am.

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: Jodo Shu vs. Jodo Shinshu

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:37 pm

*This to my view is slightly different from shinjin.

Apologies for the typos!

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