Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:44 pm

How many of you have practiced Vajrayana?
Have you received anuttara-yoga-tantra or inner tantra initiation?
Can you practice both?
Can you maintain and purify samayas with Amituofo?
Do you feel you can achieve rebirth there solely with Amituofo-chant?
Can you rely exclusively on other power with samaya?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Norwegian
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Norwegian » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:57 pm

pael wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:44 pm
How many of you have practiced Vajrayana?
Have you received anuttara-yoga-tantra or inner tantra initiation?
Can you practice both?
Can you maintain and purify samayas with Amituofo?
Do you feel you can achieve rebirth there solely with Amituofo-chant?
Can you rely exclusively on other power with samaya?
You cannot maintain and purify samaya with Amituofo as it is a method from Sutra. Samaya is solely the domain of higher/inner tantra, and as such one needs to rely on methods of higher/inner tantra to maintain and purify samaya. You can of course also practice Amituofo if you want to, but with regards to samaya, you must employ the methods received from higher/inner tantra for that.

If you have an interest in pure land, Vajrayana contains many methods and practices related to this that are simple. You have many questions about these things, and I think it's better that you ask your teacher who can give you a lot of help with these things.

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:03 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:57 pm
pael wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:44 pm
How many of you have practiced Vajrayana?
Have you received anuttara-yoga-tantra or inner tantra initiation?
Can you practice both?
Can you maintain and purify samayas with Amituofo?
Do you feel you can achieve rebirth there solely with Amituofo-chant?
Can you rely exclusively on other power with samaya?
You cannot maintain and purify samaya with Amituofo as it is a method from Sutra. Samaya is solely the domain of higher/inner tantra, and as such one needs to rely on methods of higher/inner tantra to maintain and purify samaya. You can of course also practice Amituofo if you want to, but with regards to samaya, you must employ the methods received from higher/inner tantra for that.

If you have an interest in pure land, Vajrayana contains many methods and practices related to this that are simple. You have many questions about these things, and I think it's better that you ask your teacher who can give you a lot of help with these things.
I am interested other-power, but Vajrayana is self-power.
Atisha said practice hundred achieve none, practice one achieve all.
These bothers me also.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:49 am

Does Vajrasattva have Pure Land?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1438
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Losal Samten » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:31 am

pael wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:49 am
Does Vajrasattva have Pure Land?
Akaniṣṭha Ghandavyuha. All buddhas have a pure land.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:56 am

viewtopic.php?t=27333

From another thread
DGA wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:45 am
The following is from the late Kalu Rinpoche's book, Gently Whispered, pp. 79-80. He is describing Pure Land practice as a means to liberation in the time after physical death, in the "bardo of possibility." For more details on this, go get the book and read it.
Development of such potential is the main idea behind the pure land practices, which foster the aspiration toward rebirth in a realm of pure bliss, of pure experience. The form given for expressing this motivation is devotion to an enlightened being named Buddha Amitabha. The virtue of devotion to Buddha Amitabha is that his pure land is directly accessible through faith, motivation, and aspiration. If the aspiration to attain the pure blissful experience of Dewachen is strong enough, then during the bardo state where there is no physical body as a hindrance, the process can happen instantaneously. Before the mind is required by karmic patterns to take a physical rebirth, the process can be started that will culminate in the experience of the realm of pure awareness. Through the development of faith, motivation, and aspiration to Buddha Amitabha in this life, one can short circuit all established patterns, allowing the mind to break through the individual's enmeshing karma.

With such an approach, one can attain a state equivalent to the realization of the first level of an accomplished bodhisattva. This incredible experience is described in the texts with such phrases as "taking birth in a flower in a beautiful realm of supreme bliss." The eloquent way in which it is presented in several texts has provided a basis for the aspiration and devotion that is the center focus of the pure land school. Practicing Amitabha meditation definitely establishes the tendencies which will allow the transformation to take place in the bardo of possibility. Practice of other yidams can also effect the same result. When the mind is no longer subject to the limitations of the physical embodiment, the complete instability of mental projections provides unusual potential for complete transformation, to the extent that liberation can come about in a very short period of time, even instantaneously, if one's practice is stable enough.
In other words: devotion to Amitabha is equally effective to other Dharma practices in preparing the mindstream for liberation in the time after death but before rebirth, and has the advantage of being accessible and relatively easy. This practice is truly excellent. I rejoice in the aspirations of those who are committed to Buddha Amitabha.

I'm sharing this teaching here with the intention of promoting this practice among those who may be curious about it. I found it inspiring when I read it first. Maybe you will to?

:cheers:
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:58 am

pael wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:03 pm

I am interested other-power, but Vajrayana is self-power.
Atisha said practice hundred achieve none, practice one achieve all.
These bothers me also.
See the thread linked above. I'm sure you will be able to find the perfect balance of self and other power you are after. Maybe ask a few teachers about minimum ways to maintain samaya if you cannot do it exclusively with Amitofu. A vajrayana Amitahbah sadhana may provide some middle ground between self and other power ?

I found one that does not require lung and posted in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27930&hilit=Sadhana

Sadhana

https://thubtenchodron.org/2017/07/amitabha-sadhana/
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:33 am

Maybe not highest yoga tantra but some of the outer tantras would be better since you are interested in outer power?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:06 am

Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:33 am
Maybe not highest yoga tantra but some of the outer tantras would be better since you are interested in outer power?
I have received inner tantra transmission already. Can you practice inner and outer at same time? Can outer tantra resolve problems with inner tantra?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Vasana
Posts: 1713
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:22 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:28 am

Pm'd
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:55 am

pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:06 am
Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:33 am
Maybe not highest yoga tantra but some of the outer tantras would be better since you are interested in outer power?
I have received inner tantra transmission already. Can you practice inner and outer at same time? Can outer tantra resolve problems with inner tantra?
Yes, ask a teacher who gave/will give you inner tantra initiation. There is always a way. Well, as far as I understant it the outer tantra is here for those who are not yet ready for inner tantra, mahayana sutra is here for those who are not ready for outer tantras, and hinayana sutras are here for those who are not ready for mahayana sutras.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:30 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:55 am
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:06 am
Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:33 am
Maybe not highest yoga tantra but some of the outer tantras would be better since you are interested in outer power?
I have received inner tantra transmission already. Can you practice inner and outer at same time? Can outer tantra resolve problems with inner tantra?
Yes, ask a teacher who gave/will give you inner tantra initiation. There is always a way. Well, as far as I understant it the outer tantra is here for those who are not yet ready for inner tantra, mahayana sutra is here for those who are not ready for outer tantras, and hinayana sutras are here for those who are not ready for mahayana sutras.
I feel I am not ready for tantra. I feel I'm Shin Buddhist. I think I'm ready only for Amitabha sutra. I think I rushed to inner tantra initiation. I can practice only chanting of name. I'm so simple. Tantra is too complicated for me.
I can rely only on exclusively other-power. Self-power is not for me. I want to be sure I receive perfect rebirth.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:16 pm

pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:30 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:55 am
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:06 am

I have received inner tantra transmission already. Can you practice inner and outer at same time? Can outer tantra resolve problems with inner tantra?
Yes, ask a teacher who gave/will give you inner tantra initiation. There is always a way. Well, as far as I understant it the outer tantra is here for those who are not yet ready for inner tantra, mahayana sutra is here for those who are not ready for outer tantras, and hinayana sutras are here for those who are not ready for mahayana sutras.
I feel I am not ready for tantra. I feel I'm Shin Buddhist. I think I'm ready only for Amitabha sutra. I think I rushed to inner tantra initiation. I can practice only chanting of name. I'm so simple. Tantra is too complicated for me.
I can rely only on exclusively other-power. Self-power is not for me. I want to be sure I receive perfect rebirth.
Watch if you are not too limiting yourself. Anyway keep your samayas pure and you will get a good rebirth. So do the deity you had the initiation on. Or maybe just vajrasattva to keep samayas pure.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:01 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:16 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:30 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:55 am


Yes, ask a teacher who gave/will give you inner tantra initiation. There is always a way. Well, as far as I understant it the outer tantra is here for those who are not yet ready for inner tantra, mahayana sutra is here for those who are not ready for outer tantras, and hinayana sutras are here for those who are not ready for mahayana sutras.
I feel I am not ready for tantra. I feel I'm Shin Buddhist. I think I'm ready only for Amitabha sutra. I think I rushed to inner tantra initiation. I can practice only chanting of name. I'm so simple. Tantra is too complicated for me.
I can rely only on exclusively other-power. Self-power is not for me. I want to be sure I receive perfect rebirth.
Watch if you are not too limiting yourself. Anyway keep your samayas pure and you will get a good rebirth. So do the deity you had the initiation on. Or maybe just vajrasattva to keep samayas pure.
I wish prerequisite for any initiation were reading WOMPT. They didn't tell me about vajrasattva at beginning. I readed it from lamrim and book of Khenpo Karthar.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:01 pm

pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:01 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:16 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:30 pm

I feel I am not ready for tantra. I feel I'm Shin Buddhist. I think I'm ready only for Amitabha sutra. I think I rushed to inner tantra initiation. I can practice only chanting of name. I'm so simple. Tantra is too complicated for me.
I can rely only on exclusively other-power. Self-power is not for me. I want to be sure I receive perfect rebirth.
Watch if you are not too limiting yourself. Anyway keep your samayas pure and you will get a good rebirth. So do the deity you had the initiation on. Or maybe just vajrasattva to keep samayas pure.
I wish prerequisite for any initiation were reading WOMPT. They didn't tell me about vajrasattva at beginning. I readed it from lamrim and book of Khenpo Karthar.
Hehe, yeah I know that feeling. But it is okay. Write the teacher who gave you the initiation, ask him questions that bother you and carry on doing your best. It will be alright. :-)
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

pael
Posts: 536
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:52 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:01 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:01 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:16 pm


Watch if you are not too limiting yourself. Anyway keep your samayas pure and you will get a good rebirth. So do the deity you had the initiation on. Or maybe just vajrasattva to keep samayas pure.
I wish prerequisite for any initiation were reading WOMPT. They didn't tell me about vajrasattva at beginning. I readed it from lamrim and book of Khenpo Karthar.
Hehe, yeah I know that feeling. But it is okay. Write the teacher who gave you the initiation, ask him questions that bother you and carry on doing your best. It will be alright. :-)
I have many teachers. I think I can talk with one at autumn. Other are HHST and Garchen. Does 41st Shakya Trizin have e-mail? ChNN is busy for now. Akong is in nirvana.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Admin_PC
Site Admin
Posts: 4371
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:17 pm
Location: Texas, USA

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Admin_PC » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:28 pm

Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 3:16 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:30 pm
I feel I am not ready for tantra. I feel I'm Shin Buddhist. I think I'm ready only for Amitabha sutra. I think I rushed to inner tantra initiation. I can practice only chanting of name. I'm so simple. Tantra is too complicated for me.
I can rely only on exclusively other-power. Self-power is not for me. I want to be sure I receive perfect rebirth.
Watch if you are not too limiting yourself. Anyway keep your samayas pure and you will get a good rebirth. So do the deity you had the initiation on. Or maybe just vajrasattva to keep samayas pure.
Mod Note: This is an inappropriate comment for this subforum. This is the Pure Land subforum. Such a view point would be more acceptable in the Vajrayana subforum, not here where it could be considered disparaging of a Pure Land tradition. Consider this an informal warning.
月影の いたらぬ里は なけれども 眺むる人の 心にぞすむ
法然上人

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:21 pm

pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:52 pm
Miroku wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:01 pm
pael wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:01 pm

I wish prerequisite for any initiation were reading WOMPT. They didn't tell me about vajrasattva at beginning. I readed it from lamrim and book of Khenpo Karthar.
Hehe, yeah I know that feeling. But it is okay. Write the teacher who gave you the initiation, ask him questions that bother you and carry on doing your best. It will be alright. :-)
I have many teachers. I think I can talk with one at autumn. Other are HHST and Garchen. Does 41st Shakya Trizin have e-mail? ChNN is busy for now. Akong is in nirvana.
:good:
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 8148
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:43 pm

There are Chenrezig/Amitabha sadahana out there that are mostly devotional in tone. It seems like coming from the Pureland perspective, Kriya Tantra practices would be a good bet. Whether or not these qualify as "other power" is debatable, but they definitely feel like other power in practice. This would probably feel more consistent with your PL practice, and you could probably leave it up to scholars to decide whether or not it's "officially" correct. If you are just trying to reconcile the feeling that the practices are inconsistent, then I would look into getting transmission (or doing unrestricted) Vajrayana practices that are Kriya Tantra - lots of devotional stuff and prayers for rebrith in Sukhavati, and visualization of the deity as "other" who showers you with blessings, etc.

At any rate, if you are still actively involved with Vajrayana teachers, you should ask them, or their representatives..

Also as an aside, read some Ippen Shonin. Not directly relevant perhaps but there is an influence in his writing from more "esoteric" schools, and I found him really inspirational, almost like a PL wandering yogi.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 971
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Aryjna » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:57 pm

http://www.kagyulibrary.hk/uploads/scri ... /58-en.pdf

This Sukhavati aspiration prayer contains a confession including samaya violations.

Post Reply

Return to “Pure Land”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tiago Simões, vikas113 and 16 guests