Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

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kirtu
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by kirtu » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:03 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:43 pm
Also as an aside, read some Ippen Shonin. Not directly relevant perhaps but there is an influence in his writing from more "esoteric" schools, and I found him really inspirational, almost like a PL wandering yogi.
What would you recommend?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Admin_PC » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:04 pm

kirtu wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:03 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:43 pm
Also as an aside, read some Ippen Shonin. Not directly relevant perhaps but there is an influence in his writing from more "esoteric" schools, and I found him really inspirational, almost like a PL wandering yogi.
What would you recommend?

Kirt
No Abode: The Record of Ippen is really the only book that I know of.
There's an illustrated biography too, but not sure it's translated.
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:11 pm

Yep, No Abode is as far as I know the only collection. It's amazing though and I'd recommend it to any Dharma practitioner, Pureland or no.
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by pael » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:55 am

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:57 pm
http://www.kagyulibrary.hk/uploads/scri ... /58-en.pdf

This Sukhavati aspiration prayer contains a confession including samaya violations.
Luckily this is translated in my language (Finnish). I recite it sometimes. This brings me hope. But, I can't do it daily. I have weak voice.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:42 pm

pael wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:44 pm
How many of you have practiced Vajrayana?
Have you received anuttara-yoga-tantra or inner tantra initiation?
Can you practice both?
Can you maintain and purify samayas with Amituofo?
Do you feel you can achieve rebirth there solely with Amituofo-chant?
Can you rely exclusively on other power with samaya?
Reciting the King Aspiration Prayer is one of the best "sutric" practice that accumulates merit, purify negative karma, make powerful aspiration including rebirth in Amitabha pureland. There are great grand chinese mahayana masters that only chant this prayer as their main practice but their's include the other part of the sutra and not just the verses. A Sakya lama once said that reciting this prayer 3 times a day with a short Amitabha practice that makes aspiration to be reborn in Amitabha pureland will be a guarantee practice.

Another way is to recite Nyala Padma Duddul's Buddha's Epithet.
https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/201 ... -epithets/

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Vasana » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:55 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:42 pm
pael wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:44 pm
How many of you have practiced Vajrayana?
Have you received anuttara-yoga-tantra or inner tantra initiation?
Can you practice both?
Can you maintain and purify samayas with Amituofo?
Do you feel you can achieve rebirth there solely with Amituofo-chant?
Can you rely exclusively on other power with samaya?
Reciting the King Aspiration Prayer is one of the best "sutric" practice that accumulates merit, purify negative karma, make powerful aspiration including rebirth in Amitabha pureland. There are great grand chinese mahayana masters that only chant this prayer as their main practice but their's include the other part of the sutra and not just the verses. A Sakya lama once said that reciting this prayer 3 times a day with a short Amitabha practice that makes aspiration to be reborn in Amitabha pureland will be a guarantee practice.

Another way is to recite Nyala Padma Duddul's Buddha's Epithet.
https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/201 ... -epithets/
:good:

However it's still largely uncertain whether Vajrayana commitments can be maintained by sutric practices just as you wouldn't maintain Mahayana vows with Sravakayana view. I think only one's own teacher(s) can determine a suitable way of proceeding.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:34 pm

Vasana wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:55 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:42 pm

Reciting the King Aspiration Prayer is one of the best "sutric" practice that accumulates merit, purify negative karma, make powerful aspiration including rebirth in Amitabha pureland. There are great grand chinese mahayana masters that only chant this prayer as their main practice but their's include the other part of the sutra and not just the verses. A Sakya lama once said that reciting this prayer 3 times a day with a short Amitabha practice that makes aspiration to be reborn in Amitabha pureland will be a guarantee practice.

Another way is to recite Nyala Padma Duddul's Buddha's Epithet.
https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/201 ... -epithets/
:good:

However it's still largely uncertain whether Vajrayana commitments can be maintained by sutric practices just as you wouldn't maintain Mahayana vows with Sravakayana view. I think only one's own teacher(s) can determine a suitable way of proceeding.
I agree. I intend this to be general sharing of knowledge and not to answer his specific questions. However, i do note the danger of thinking that reciting amitofo only and alone is sufficient to be reborn in Sukhavati. Thus the sharing of the King Aspiration Prayer. In Chinese mahayana pureland school, it is one of their 5 main texts.

Do take note that Padma Dudul's Buddha's Epithet maybe able to purify vajrayana samayas as it is written inside.

Interestingly, I have read a chinese article that is attributable to Karma Chagme saying that it is possible for one who has broken samaya to be reborn in pureland. The only caveat is that his practice must be so confident and strong because he won't be able to see visions of Buddhas in bardo. everywhere will appear dark for a samaya breaker. But if he is devoted and focus single pointedly at that time, it is still possible for him to be reborn in pureland. BUT, surely, I wouldn't like to take this kind of risk.

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Admin_PC » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:26 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:34 pm
However, i do note the danger of thinking that reciting amitofo only and alone is sufficient to be reborn in Sukhavati.
Actually the requirements are less than that. Merely aspiring to be born there with a sincere wish is said to be enough in the sutra. Preaching otherwise is considered by many of the Pure Land schools to not only be incorrect, but dangerous.
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Admin_PC » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:31 pm

The issue of whether Samaya breakers can be reborn in the Pure Land is cut and dried from the Pure Land side. It is entirely possible. Breaking Samaya is not one of the 5 grave offenses (Ānantarika-karma) so there's not even a debate. Even if it qualified as one of the 5 grave offenses, any school that accepts the Visualization Sutra (Amitāyurdhyāna Sūtra - 佛說觀無量壽佛經) would still say it is possible. Stating otherwise goes against the teachings and intent of Pure Land schools.
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:46 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:26 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:34 pm
However, i do note the danger of thinking that reciting amitofo only and alone is sufficient to be reborn in Sukhavati.
Actually the requirements are less than that. Merely aspiring to be born there with a sincere wish is said to be enough in the sutra. Preaching otherwise is considered by many of the Pure Land schools to not only be incorrect, but dangerous.
I know the sutra. Lack of merit will hinder rebirth in western pureland. Aspiring is not sufficient.

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:50 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:31 pm
The issue of whether Samaya breakers can be reborn in the Pure Land is cut and dried from the Pure Land side. It is entirely possible. Breaking Samaya is not one of the 5 grave offenses (Ānantarika-karma) so there's not even a debate. Even if it qualified as one of the 5 grave offenses, any school that accepts the Visualization Sutra (Amitāyurdhyāna Sūtra - 佛說觀無量壽佛經) would still say it is possible. Stating otherwise goes against the teachings and intent of Pure Land schools.
But isn't in this case more definitive what tantric teachings say? It is natural that sutras do not include breakage of samaya as an obstacle to be reborn there when there is no concept of tantric samayas in sutra.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Motova » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:03 pm

Vasana wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:55 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:42 pm
pael wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:44 pm
How many of you have practiced Vajrayana?
Have you received anuttara-yoga-tantra or inner tantra initiation?
Can you practice both?
Can you maintain and purify samayas with Amituofo?
Do you feel you can achieve rebirth there solely with Amituofo-chant?
Can you rely exclusively on other power with samaya?
Reciting the King Aspiration Prayer is one of the best "sutric" practice that accumulates merit, purify negative karma, make powerful aspiration including rebirth in Amitabha pureland. There are great grand chinese mahayana masters that only chant this prayer as their main practice but their's include the other part of the sutra and not just the verses. A Sakya lama once said that reciting this prayer 3 times a day with a short Amitabha practice that makes aspiration to be reborn in Amitabha pureland will be a guarantee practice.

Another way is to recite Nyala Padma Duddul's Buddha's Epithet.
https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/201 ... -epithets/
:good:

However it's still largely uncertain whether Vajrayana commitments can be maintained by sutric practices just as you wouldn't maintain Mahayana vows with Sravakayana view. I think only one's own teacher(s) can determine a suitable way of proceeding.
Malcolm said you can purify samaya by reciting the seven limb prayer three times a day, which is basically a sutra practice.

I also remember reading that saving lives of beings purifies samaya, I think that is from Dudjom's commentary on the three vows.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Motova » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:06 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:50 pm
Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:31 pm
The issue of whether Samaya breakers can be reborn in the Pure Land is cut and dried from the Pure Land side. It is entirely possible. Breaking Samaya is not one of the 5 grave offenses (Ānantarika-karma) so there's not even a debate. Even if it qualified as one of the 5 grave offenses, any school that accepts the Visualization Sutra (Amitāyurdhyāna Sūtra - 佛說觀無量壽佛經) would still say it is possible. Stating otherwise goes against the teachings and intent of Pure Land schools.
But isn't in this case more definitive what tantric teachings say? It is natural that sutras do not include breakage of samaya as an obstacle to be reborn there when there is no concept of tantric samayas in sutra.
How is breaking samaya worse than the five grave offenses?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Admin_PC » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:42 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:46 pm
Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:26 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:34 pm
However, i do note the danger of thinking that reciting amitofo only and alone is sufficient to be reborn in Sukhavati.
Actually the requirements are less than that. Merely aspiring to be born there with a sincere wish is said to be enough in the sutra. Preaching otherwise is considered by many of the Pure Land schools to not only be incorrect, but dangerous.
I know the sutra. Lack of merit will hinder rebirth in western pureland. Aspiring is not sufficient.
Apparently not, coz this statement is directly refuted by the sutra.
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:43 pm

Motova wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:06 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:50 pm
Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:31 pm
The issue of whether Samaya breakers can be reborn in the Pure Land is cut and dried from the Pure Land side. It is entirely possible. Breaking Samaya is not one of the 5 grave offenses (Ānantarika-karma) so there's not even a debate. Even if it qualified as one of the 5 grave offenses, any school that accepts the Visualization Sutra (Amitāyurdhyāna Sūtra - 佛說觀無量壽佛經) would still say it is possible. Stating otherwise goes against the teachings and intent of Pure Land schools.
But isn't in this case more definitive what tantric teachings say? It is natural that sutras do not include breakage of samaya as an obstacle to be reborn there when there is no concept of tantric samayas in sutra.
How is breaking samaya worse than the five grave offenses?
Touché! :D Thank you for clarification. Also may I ask for a source with the seven limb prayer (Malcolm comment)?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Admin_PC » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:44 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:50 pm
Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:31 pm
The issue of whether Samaya breakers can be reborn in the Pure Land is cut and dried from the Pure Land side. It is entirely possible. Breaking Samaya is not one of the 5 grave offenses (Ānantarika-karma) so there's not even a debate. Even if it qualified as one of the 5 grave offenses, any school that accepts the Visualization Sutra (Amitāyurdhyāna Sūtra - 佛說觀無量壽佛經) would still say it is possible. Stating otherwise goes against the teachings and intent of Pure Land schools.
But isn't in this case more definitive what tantric teachings say? It is natural that sutras do not include breakage of samaya as an obstacle to be reborn there when there is no concept of tantric samayas in sutra.
Not in this subforum. Maybe in the Vajrayana subforum. The founders of the 2 major schools of Japanese Pure Land came from Tendai, which is an esoteric school that definitely has the concept of tantric samayas 三昧耶戒.
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Admin_PC » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:50 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:42 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:46 pm
Admin_PC wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:26 pm
Actually the requirements are less than that. Merely aspiring to be born there with a sincere wish is said to be enough in the sutra. Preaching otherwise is considered by many of the Pure Land schools to not only be incorrect, but dangerous.
I know the sutra. Lack of merit will hinder rebirth in western pureland. Aspiring is not sufficient.
Apparently not, coz this statement is directly refuted by the sutra.
Just to further hammer this home...
Visualization Sutra wrote: “A low rebirth in the low rank can be achieved by sentient beings that have done bad karmas, such as any of the five rebellious acts or the ten evil karmas. Because of their evil karmas, these fools should go down the evil life-paths to undergo endless suffering for many kalpas. But when such a fool’s life is ending, he may encounter a beneficent learned friend who will comfort him in many ways, expound the wondrous Dharma, and teach him to think of that Buddha. However, this person, overcome by suffering, will be unable to think of that Buddha. His beneficent friend will then tell him, ‘If you are unable to think of that Buddha, you should say that you take refuge in Amitāyus Buddha. Say it earnestly and keep your voice uninterrupted as you say “namo Amitāyus Buddha” ten times in ten thoughts.’ By saying Amitāyus Buddha's name, thought after thought, his sins which would entail 80 koṭi kalpas of birth and death will all be expunged. When his life is ending, he will see a golden lotus flower appearing before him like the sun.

“In the instant of a thought, he will be reborn in the Land of Ultimate Bliss. He will remain in the lotus flower for twelve large kalpas. When the lotus flower opens, Bodhisattvas Avalokiteśvara and Great Might Arrived, with tones of great compassion, will expound to him the true reality of dharmas and the Dharma for expunging sins. Having heard the teachings, he will be delighted and immediately activate the bodhi mind. This is called a low rebirth in the low rank.
Larger Sukhavativyuha Sutra wrote: “In the low class are gods and humans in worlds in the ten directions who earnestly wish to be reborn in that land. Although they are unable to acquire various merits, they should activate the unsurpassed bodhi mind and, with a wish for rebirth in that land, single-mindedly think ten thoughts of Amitāyus Buddha. If they hear the profound Dharma, they should delight and believe in it without raising doubts. Even if they think only one thought of that Buddha, with utmost sincerity they should resolve to be reborn in His land. When they die, they will dream of that Buddha and will be reborn in His land. Their merit and wisdom are below those in the middle class.”
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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Motova » Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:56 pm

Miroku wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:43 pm

Also may I ask for a source with the seven limb prayer (Malcolm comment)?
This was on skype I think.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Re: Pure Land practice and Vajrayana (HYT)

Post by Miroku » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:01 pm

Motova wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:56 pm
Miroku wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:43 pm

Also may I ask for a source with the seven limb prayer (Malcolm comment)?
This was on skype I think.
I see. I will do a research and take your word. :) Thank you!
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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