Amida's death?

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doublerepukken
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Amida's death?

Post by doublerepukken »

Hey everybody! Been a LONG time since I posted, I've been moving around quite a bit as well as reading a lot of Dharma and am currently writing this from Vietnam! Good to be back and I hope to interact more now that I am more well-versed in Pure Land =)

I had a question for you all, I recently heard of the Sutra of The Prophecy bestowed upon Avalokitesvara (Kannon), wherein it is stated that He will reach Buddhahood after the death of Amida. I had to read it twice; Amida's death!?!


Additionally, it is stated that when Kannon achieves Buddhahood, he will make his own Pure Land which is even greater and more blissful (lol) than Sukhavati :?:

I am extremely confused. This sutra seems to fly in the face of everything taught by Shinran, Honen, Shandao, Tao-cho etc. even the Larger and Smaller sutras.

If Amida is a Sambhogakaya Buddha, how can he 'die'? Can a Sambhogakaya Buddha return to Parinirvana? Will Kannon replace him somehow? In the future will we need to say Namu Kannon Butsu?? If was to return solely to the Dharmakaya, wouldn't it break his vows to lead all to liberation? How are we supposed to interpret this sutra as followers of the Pure Land way??

Any help is greatly appreciated!
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Re: Amida's death?

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The sutra also says that those who possess the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samādhi (nembutsu sanmai) will never stop seeing him. Also, in Mahayana, parinirvana is something Buddhas display as a lesson on impermanence. According to the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni is still teaching on Vulture Peak. So it's not like Amida suddenly stops working for the benefit of all sentient beings. It's just that while his lifespan is incalculably long, it's not permanent. This world will be long destroyed by the time that happens though and it will be the same amount of time as his incalculably long lifespan between Amida's displaying parinirvana before Kannon attains anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi and manifests his Buddha Land. Kannon's attainment of anuttara-samyak-saṁbodhi also marks the point that Amida's Dharma dispensation is no longer present, so the PL sutras would no longer be around for sentient beings to be relying on. In that interim, Sukhavati will still have its adornments which teach the Dharma every moment of every day. Should easily be enough time to achieve nembutsu sanmai and/or be far enough along on the Bodhisattva path that we don't need such direct supervision.
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doublerepukken
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Re: Amida's death?

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I see. I guess my question is, though Amida will go into parinirvana, does the Vow still work throughout all time (even after Amida's parinirvana)? If so, why?
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Re: Amida's death?

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While the Dharma dispensation of Amida is still active in the world, it is safe to assume that the vows would still be in effect:

"The number of sentient beings that will be delivered will equal that during His life. After Amitābha’s parinirvāṇa, some sentient beings there will not be able to see a Buddha. However, Bodhisattvas who have attained the Thinking-of-Buddhas Samādhi will constantly see Amitābha Buddha. Furthermore, good man, after His parinirvāṇa, all the precious things, such as bathing ponds, lotus flowers, and jeweled trees in lines, will continue to sound Dharma tones, in the same way as during that Buddha’s life."

One of the consequences of the ending of Amida's Dharma dispensation is that nobody will know about his Vows. The only way one would know about it would be if perhaps they recalled a past life.

At the moment when Amida's Dharma dispensation ends and Avalokitesvara achieves supreme awakening, according to Sūtra of the Prophecy Bestowed upon Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva and the vows of Avalokitesvara in the Surangama sutra, Avalokitesvara will receive practitioners and teach them Dharma. After Avalokitesvara, Mahasthamaprapta takes over.
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Re: Amida's death?

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It's going to be a while before he dies, so why not practice your ass off and go ask him personally?
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Re: Amida's death?

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If Amida is a Sambhogakaya Buddha, how can he 'die'? Can a Sambhogakaya Buddha return to Parinirvana?
Yes. Sambhogakayas are conditioned bodies, if far more pure than gross phenomenal bodies like these.
ill Kannon replace him somehow? In the future will we need to say Namu Kannon Butsu?? If was to return solely to the Dharmakaya, wouldn't it break his vows to lead all to liberation? How are we supposed to interpret this sutra as followers of the Pure Land way??
First, you can practice the niem-phat to Kannon now, although I know it's uncommon in Japanese Pure Land traditions. It is just as effective for Pure Land birth. Moret han that, Amitabha's vows state that anyone -- throughout time -- who practices mindfulness of him and dedicates their vows can be reborn in that land. I would infer this to mean that in the unlikely event that someone recalls Amitabha's vows and practice long after he has entered parinirvana, the efficacy of the vow is still potent and rebirth would occur in Avalokitesvrara's or Mahasthamaprapta's Pure Land.
I see. I guess my question is, though Amida will go into parinirvana, does the Vow still work throughout all time (even after Amida's parinirvana)? If so, why?
That is the power of bodhisattva vows, and the same reason why we don't need to renew our bodhisattva vows each lifetime.
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Re: Amida's death?

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Sentient Light wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 pmYes. Sambhogakayas are conditioned bodies, if far more pure than gross phenomenal bodies like these.
This might depend on source and school. There are definitely schools that say that Sambhogakayas have no end. One place says it's the samadhi of the Buddhas. Another place says that it's the essence of the Bodhisattvas. In the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, Chan Master Huineng describes the Samboghakaya as a state in which the practitioner continually and naturally produces good thoughts.

Trikaya can get kind of messy and there really aren't a whole lot of sutra that teach it. Once you throw the Lankavatara Trikaya in there, it gets even messier as it's a slightly different schema.

It's often said Sambhogakaya can only be perceived by those with the necessary karma to perceive them. Dharmakaya can only be known by the Buddhas (though East Asian commentaries I've read seem to say that high level bodhisattvas can catch a glimpse). Achieving Thinking-of-Buddhas Samadhi (mentioned in that Prophecy Sutra) sounds a lot more like the first case than the second.

All Buddhas have/manifest all three bodies and the idea that Buddhas abide in parinirvana is not a thing in Mahayana, so it's a bit like splitting hairs.

Some related threads we had on this already:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=12807
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=12817
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doublerepukken
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Re: Amida's death?

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OK, I understand this, but does that mean that not all of Amidas vows are fulfilled?? The 13th specifically says his lifespan will be never ending...
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Re: Amida's death?

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doublerepukken wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:26 pm OK, I understand this, but does that mean that not all of Amidas vows are fulfilled?? The 13th specifically says his lifespan will be never ending...
I would say "no, they were fulfilled" because a Buddha no longer identifies with the 5 aggregates subject to perishing (ie Nirmanakaya form). The Lifespan chapter of the Lotus (for example) is not referring to the Nirmanakaya (in most interpretations).

I'm not going to lie, I too find the Sūtra of the Prophecy Bestowed upon Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva problematic, but we're talking of massively long time frames here - longer than the entire bodhisattva careers of many Buddhas. The path of accumulation and perfection of the paramitas typically takes 3 long eons and we're talking an incalculable number of those. To put that in perspective - 1 long eon is usually used to describe the rise and fall (expansion and contraction/destruction) of the universe. It's just important to remember that Buddhas will never abandon sentient beings and if one has a karmic connection with Amida, he is always accessible. As long as one develops the Thinking of Buddhas (nembutsu) Samadhi one will always see him. This Samadhi is one of those guaranteed things accessible to all whose lotus blossoms open in Sukhavati.
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Re: Amida's death?

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Admin_PC wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:05 am This might depend on source and school. There are definitely schools that say that Sambhogakayas have no end. One place says it's the samadhi of the Buddhas. Another place says that it's the essence of the Bodhisattvas. In the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, Chan Master Huineng describes the Samboghakaya as a state in which the practitioner continually and naturally produces good thoughts.
Thanks, quite interesting. I'll have to think on this further. I have often heard the sambhogakaya referred to as the Immortal Body, but it always seemed like the same context as 'Deathless' could apply. Something with a beginning but no ending is.... hard to grok, especially given Vasubandhu's arguments against such a causal process.
I'm not going to lie, I too find the Sūtra of the Prophecy Bestowed upon Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva problematic
I wish I could find the text again (I know there's a translation somewhere, at least of this section, because I've picked apart differences between it and the Prophecy telling of this), but here's what Jan Nattier has to say about Lokaksema's translation of the Larger Sukhavativyuha:
Indeed, for readers
familiar with later “pure land” traditions the most striking passage in
Lokak≈ema’s Sukhåvat∆vy¥ha is the one describing how, after the final
extinction of Amitåbha, the bodhisattva AvalokiteΩvara (here given in an
ancient transcription which probably goes back to an older form such as
*AvalokaΩvara) will take his place. After the death of AvalokiteΩvara, in
turn, Mahåsthamaprapta will succeed to the position of presiding buddha.32
In this early recension of the larger Sukhåvat∆vy¥ha, in other words, we can
see that the basic principle that Amitåbha must die before his successor (in
this case, AvalokiteΩvara) can become a buddha is still fully in force. Once
again there is no mention of any of Amitåbha’s disciples attaining
buddhahood in his presence, while there are copious mentions of arhats in
his world. At this early stage in the development of the Sukhåvat∆vy¥ha, in
sum, the thread connecting the story of Amitåbha to earlier ideas about the
path to buddhahood (including those found in the Ak≈obhyavy¥ha) is still
quite clearly visible.
http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~ckeng/doc/Nattier_PureLand.pdf

So it is quite ancient, this idea. I am not sure that I see so much of a conflict though. As you state, these are massive timescales. In addition, the scriptures are also clear that there is no place or time where Amitabha is not accessible, and that is not even for just humans in Saha world, but any being in any world. I think this is where faith comes into play, although I am sure there are commentaries abound that make better sense of it.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
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Re: Amida's death?

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There's another article that backs that up (might be related to the Amitayus being a mistranslation of the Gandharan that you mentioned elsewhere):
https://www.jstor.org/stable/24049429?s ... b_contents
In the article they say it's T362.
Could've also possibly been T361.

I don't doubt the passage, nor do I doubt the Prophecy sutra. I think I have more of a hard time with the Sambhogakaya being perishable, rather than the possible display of parinirvana by a specific type of perfect Nirmanakaya - but that's also because of how I was taught the concept of the Sambhogakaya. Like I said, it all kinda gets trumped in the end by the fact that the Thinking of Buddhas Samadhi still keeps Amida accessible.
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Re: Amida's death?

Post by ThreeVows »

Admin_PC wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:05 am
Sentient Light wrote: Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:41 pmYes. Sambhogakayas are conditioned bodies, if far more pure than gross phenomenal bodies like these.
This might depend on source and school. There are definitely schools that say that Sambhogakayas have no end. One place says it's the samadhi of the Buddhas. Another place says that it's the essence of the Bodhisattvas. In the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch, Chan Master Huineng describes the Samboghakaya as a state in which the practitioner continually and naturally produces good thoughts.

Trikaya can get kind of messy and there really aren't a whole lot of sutra that teach it. Once you throw the Lankavatara Trikaya in there, it gets even messier as it's a slightly different schema.

It's often said Sambhogakaya can only be perceived by those with the necessary karma to perceive them. Dharmakaya can only be known by the Buddhas (though East Asian commentaries I've read seem to say that high level bodhisattvas can catch a glimpse). Achieving Thinking-of-Buddhas Samadhi (mentioned in that Prophecy Sutra) sounds a lot more like the first case than the second.

All Buddhas have/manifest all three bodies and the idea that Buddhas abide in parinirvana is not a thing in Mahayana, so it's a bit like splitting hairs.

Some related threads we had on this already:
viewtopic.php?f=60&t=12807
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=12817
To add a wrinkle to this, I went and looked at what Dudjom Rinpoche writes (from the Nyingma Vajrayana position). He clearly says that the Buddha Body of perfect Rapture, or the Sambhogakaya, is actually only within the perceptual range of the buddhas' pristine cognition alone, and remains invisible even to bodhisattvas of the highest level who are not liberated from all obscurations.

However, when it comes to the emanational bodies or nirmanakayas, there is the so-called 'emanation of natural expression' which has to do with the 5 families such as Amitabha appearing to the bodhisattvas of the highest level, in the manner of rainbow light. He says that in this situation, when they are compounded by the minds of others, they are said to be endowed with a semi-manifest natural expression, half-way between the true body of perfect rapture and the emanational body.

What's written above is in significant part an exact quote from the book The Nyingma Tradition, I only edited it a bit for readability given that it's in context in the book. I do not know his sources offhand.
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