Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

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kirtu
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Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by kirtu » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:05 pm

Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:02 pm

His vids are so different since he came back from retreat. This is before, right?

PS: Actually ... maybe that one was during. Anyway in his recent ones he seems so different. There’s a rock hard stillness in there. I almost miss the old quirky version.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by kirtu » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:31 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:02 pm
His vids are so different since he came back from retreat. This is before, right?

PS: Actually ... maybe that one was during. Anyway in his recent ones he seems so different. There’s a rock hard stillness in there. I almost miss the old quirky version.
This is probably from before his retreat.

"Rock hard stillness" - I would put it as a sharpness but then again I'm not a student of his. He is still pretty quirky compared to most people.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by TharpaChodron » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm

Good video. Everyone talks about the importance of retreat, even Malcolm said that he would go into retreat and stay forever, or something like that (just giving Malcolm his nickel). But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all?

I think there may be people who go into retreat and then are ill equipped for helping beings in Samsara later, and it might be unhelpful, maybe even an obstacle to their spiritual growth, if that's even possible.

But, I do think a person who has spent their life in retreat can positively influence others and their environment simply by the stability of their own wisdom nature, too.

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:04 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all? .... But, I do think a person who has spent their life in retreat can positively influence others and their environment simply by the stability of their own wisdom nature, too.
There are people who can't really help others in a secular way. But they can still help them spiritually just through their positive mind (as you allude to at the end).
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
I think there may be people who go into retreat and then are ill equipped for helping beings in Samsara later, and it might be unhelpful, maybe even an obstacle to their spiritual growth, if that's even possible.
There are but this means that they have some obstacles. In more traditional retreats there is a phase in the beginning where obstacles are dealt with (although they can arise later as well). I suspect that nowadays fewer people whom retreat would have an adverse effect for are being allowed in.

It used to happen that some people with mental illness would go to Zen retreats and then get up in the middle and ring bells. Then they started screening for this kind of thing. But for people who are marginal but functional this might be a positive thing as they face the impulse to do something like this.

I had met a former sports/tv news personality who really had completely renounced samsaric life and just practiced. He was on an infamous retreat in northern France where basically no one there should have been there (including him at the time, he said). The retreat collapsed after a few months although the lama continued to completion. There were a couple of westerners who made it as well but just because there wouldn't leave. All their negativities came boiling out and people were not ready for that. However this was one thing that caused this person to examine his life closely so it wasn't actually all bad.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:35 am

kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:04 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all? .... But, I do think a person who has spent their life in retreat can positively influence others and their environment simply by the stability of their own wisdom nature, too.
There are people who can't really help others in a secular way. But they can still help them spiritually just through their positive mind (as you allude to at the end).
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
I think there may be people who go into retreat and then are ill equipped for helping beings in Samsara later, and it might be unhelpful, maybe even an obstacle to their spiritual growth, if that's even possible.
There are but this means that they have some obstacles. In more traditional retreats there is a phase in the beginning where obstacles are dealt with (although they can arise later as well). I suspect that nowadays fewer people whom retreat would have an adverse effect for are being allowed in.

It used to happen that some people with mental illness would go to Zen retreats and then get up in the middle and ring bells. Then they started screening for this kind of thing. But for people who are marginal but functional this might be a positive thing as they face the impulse to do something like this.

I had met a former sports/tv news personality who really had completely renounced samsaric life and just practiced. He was on an infamous retreat in northern France where basically no one there should have been there (including him at the time, he said). The retreat collapsed after a few months although the lama continued to completion. There were a couple of westerners who made it as well but just because there wouldn't leave. All their negativities came boiling out and people were not ready for that. However this was one thing that caused this person to examine his life closely so it wasn't actually all bad.

Kirt
I imagine having obstacles arise is part of doing retreat, regardless of one's mental stability. So it has to have benefits for people, if they can work through it.

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:58 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
Good video. Everyone talks about the importance of retreat, even Malcolm said that he would go into retreat and stay forever, or something like that (just giving Malcolm his nickel). But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all?

I think there may be people who go into retreat and then are ill equipped for helping beings in Samsara later, and it might be unhelpful, maybe even an obstacle to their spiritual growth, if that's even possible.

But, I do think a person who has spent their life in retreat can positively influence others and their environment simply by the stability of their own wisdom nature, too.
It just depends on one's karma...and working well with it. Any "correct" answer is bound to be relative.
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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:30 am

kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:04 am
I had met a former sports/tv news personality who really had completely renounced samsaric life and just practiced. He was on an infamous retreat in northern France where basically no one there should have been there (including him at the time, he said). The retreat collapsed after a few months although the lama continued to completion. There were a couple of westerners who made it as well but just because there wouldn't leave. All their negativities came boiling out and people were not ready for that. However this was one thing that caused this person to examine his life closely so it wasn't actually all bad.
I forgot to mention the time frame here - I met the man in the early 90's. The retreat referenced took place in the 70's or so.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:53 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:58 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
Good video. Everyone talks about the importance of retreat, even Malcolm said that he would go into retreat and stay forever, or something like that (just giving Malcolm his nickel). But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all?

I think there may be people who go into retreat and then are ill equipped for helping beings in Samsara later, and it might be unhelpful, maybe even an obstacle to their spiritual growth, if that's even possible.

But, I do think a person who has spent their life in retreat can positively influence others and their environment simply by the stability of their own wisdom nature, too.
It just depends on one's karma...and working well with it. Any "correct" answer is bound to be relative.
Yes, of course. The reasonable answer is always going to be specific to each situation and person.

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:59 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all?
Samsara is also there in retreat, magnified quite intensely.
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The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
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which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:59 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all?
Samsara is also there in retreat, magnified quite intensely.
I used to think a retreat was always done solitary, and then I heard that 3 year retreats are more like a group thing, so I can see how it could be magnified.

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by conebeckham » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:33 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:59 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:25 pm
But what about the importance of leaving retreat and engaging beneficially in Samsara. Is it somewhat important or not at all?
Samsara is also there in retreat, magnified quite intensely.
I used to think a retreat was always done solitary, and then I heard that 3 year retreats are more like a group thing, so I can see how it could be magnified.
In Tibetan tradition, some folks do a solitary retreat, it's true, but most people's first extended retreats are with others. However, you still spend much of your time alone, in solitary practice. Twice a day there are group practices, and of course there are meals. There are also usually monthly and annual group rituals, as well.

A friend who did such a retreat told me that the retreat really drove home the point made by Sartre, I think it was..."Hell is other people." :smile:

Of course those who do retreat in solitary fashion may not contend with this wonderful opportunity to practice, but there are hells that can be personally experienced on one's own, eh?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by TharpaChodron » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:57 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:33 pm
TharpaChodron wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:59 pm


Samsara is also there in retreat, magnified quite intensely.
I used to think a retreat was always done solitary, and then I heard that 3 year retreats are more like a group thing, so I can see how it could be magnified.
In Tibetan tradition, some folks do a solitary retreat, it's true, but most people's first extended retreats are with others. However, you still spend much of your time alone, in solitary practice. Twice a day there are group practices, and of course there are meals. There are also usually monthly and annual group rituals, as well.

A friend who did such a retreat told me that the retreat really drove home the point made by Sartre, I think it was..."Hell is other people." :smile:

Of course those who do retreat in solitary fashion may not contend with this wonderful opportunity to practice, but there are hells that can be personally experienced on one's own, eh?
True, true. Samsara can be experienced alone or with people. Whichever the case, Mingur Rinpoche seems like a trustworthy source for the claims of the benefits of doing it.

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by conebeckham » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:08 pm

Mingyur Rinpoche is one of my teachers, and I agree. Completely reliable.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by passel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:57 pm

Group retreat is great for pulling the center of gravity of your practice in line with the group’s.
Great when you need support, not a ton of help when your practice has taken on some stability. Solo retreat is priceless, even a short time. And hell, three years is a short time.
More retreat is good. It means you’ll build a life that supports it, which means you’ll be better able to help others when you are around, which is still going to be much or most of the time.
And you’ll feel like you’re in line with your highest intention, so you’ll be less grudging with the time you do have, both towards sentient beings and toward the lineage.
It’s not that hard to score a month a year of retreat, information goes only so far, nourishment is what we actually need so as not simply be talking someone else’s walk.
And yes, obstacles will arise. Big time!! That’s the whole point of path.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by passel » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:10 pm

Also, I love Mingyur Rinpoche too! His wandering retreat was the best thing he could have done from his position, at least to my mind. The difference now is that he’s way less institutionalized and way more grown up. Hes more self-reliant, and more intentional about teaching. He also gave Tergar 4 years to grow some roots without him, and I think some of those folks are becoming very fine instructors and students. He’s my age and I hope to learn from him as long as I live but I think the real impact he’ll have is on Millenials, once they start settling into serious practice. He’s like a fresh face for the Karma Kagyu but has a strong enough organization (Tergar) that non-Tibetans east and west can have a serious engagement without taking on a ton of institutional karma. And strong on sila without being uptight, which we need, badly
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Mingyur Rinpoche : The Importance of Retreat

Post by liuzg150181 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:11 am

kirtu wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:31 pm
This is probably from before his retreat.

"Rock hard stillness" - I would put it as a sharpness but then again I'm not a student of his. He is still pretty quirky compared to most people.

Kirt
Speaking of his quirkiness:
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=26799&p=411801&hil ... ur#p411801

"Migyur Dorje is commonly referred to even by his followers as "Ternyon (gter smyon)," i.e., "the mad terton." His capacity for displaying irrational behavior is legendary."

"No, Yonge Migyur Dorje, a Karma Kagyu terton with close ties to the tenth Karmapa. Yes, there is a connection with the present Migyur Rinpoche."

:shock:

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