Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

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pael
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by pael » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:37 pm


See Dharmakirti, he shows rebirth is true via logic. It is not demonstrable empirically because ordinary people do not have a means of cognition available to them with which they may verify it.
Yes unfortunately I don't subscribe to Gnostic Elite Weekly. I prefer Cat Fancy.

Do we really hold the mistaken cognitions of ordinary people to be the standard of truth?
What is standard of truth?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:56 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pm
Do we really hold the mistaken cognitions of ordinary people to be the standard of truth?
Is it really necessary to build a CERN Large Hadron Collider in my basement in order to convince myself that the Higgs boson particle exists before I start learning about chemistry?
In terms of ascertaining rebirth in direct perception, it is necessary to develop the five abhijñas so that one can personally verify rebirth through one's own experience. Even those these abhijñās are mundane, they are not ordinary in the sense that while they are faculties anyone can develop through cultivating samadhi, few people do.

If one wishes to even start practicing Buddhadharma, it is a good idea to have an understanding of the what existential problem Buddhism presents (affliction-driven rebirth) and its solution to that problem.

People who do not accept rebirth are utterly wasting their time studying and practicing Buddhadharma. There is no point to it. If you want to be a "better" person, or have less anxiety, etc., you don't need Buddhism at all.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:56 pm
People who do not accept rebirth are utterly wasting their time studying and practicing Buddhadharma. There is no point to it. If you want to be a "better" person, or have less anxiety, etc., you don't need Buddhism at all.
Yes, and I'd go further.

If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.

I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.

Without the other three noble truths leading to the deathless, life is nothing but poison.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:56 pm
People who do not accept rebirth are utterly wasting their time studying and practicing Buddhadharma. There is no point to it. If you want to be a "better" person, or have less anxiety, etc., you don't need Buddhism at all.
Yes, and I'd go further.

If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.

I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
This is too extreme.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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CedarTree
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by CedarTree » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:33 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pm
Do we really hold the mistaken cognitions of ordinary people to be the standard of truth?
Is it really necessary to build a CERN Large Hadron Collider in my basement in order to convince myself that the Higgs boson particle exists before I start learning about chemistry?

PuerAzaelis I am not quoting this post for any particular reason just wanted to say I enjoy you stirring the pot. Keeps shit honest and a bit more on it's toes.

And I subscribe to rebirth but I realize exactly what your getting at and it's on point so far as people providing weak apologetics.

The weak apologetics reminds me of those lame Christian ones that literally destroyed the tradition. They had this rich corpus of theology and understanding and then these lame apologetics and creationism science started popping up :P

Practice, Practice, Practice

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CedarTree
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by CedarTree » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:56 pm
People who do not accept rebirth are utterly wasting their time studying and practicing Buddhadharma. There is no point to it. If you want to be a "better" person, or have less anxiety, etc., you don't need Buddhism at all.
Yes, and I'd go further.

If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.

I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
This is too extreme.
I actually think he is pretty much on point. That is the ethos of Existentialism and they have developed it pretty well. Camus comes to mind.

Practice, Practice, Practice

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:56 pm
People who do not accept rebirth are utterly wasting their time studying and practicing Buddhadharma. There is no point to it. If you want to be a "better" person, or have less anxiety, etc., you don't need Buddhism at all.
Yes, and I'd go further.

If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.

I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
This is too extreme.
Ok ... in what way?

As you recently told me, there is not a single pinhead of happiness in the world.

Even if I went through life deliriously happy all the time, I would in fact really be suffering, as long as my volition was involved.

If i were to say - The three poisons are what are extreme. They are killers. Refuge is a matter of life and death.

That would either be the case or not. Practicing like your hair on fire is either a charming medieval anachronism or it isn't.

You want me to subscribe to Gnostic Elite Weekly but now ... are you going wobbly on the basics?

;)
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:45 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:30 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:13 pm

Yes, and I'd go further.

If someone is incapable of placing some degree of irrational faith in some flying pink hippo (such as god, free will, immortality, etc), in some variant, consequently the only strictly logical alternatives are either "let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die" or gun-in-the-mouth.

I.e., hedonism or despair. Attraction or aversion.
This is too extreme.
Ok ... in what way?

Your statement is premised on the acceptance of the irrational, but you have not shown that accepting rebirth is irrational.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:45 pm
Your statement is premised on the acceptance of the irrational, but you have not shown that accepting rebirth is irrational.
Until I see the pink hippo in my attic, I take its existence on faith. That is, until something has been proven to me using either induction or deduction, I accept it on faith.

Are you saying that proving rebirth via induction is not only possible to do for a beginning practitioner, but necessary?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:56 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:52 pm
Are you saying that proving rebirth via induction is not only possible to do for a beginning practitioner, but necessary?
Of course. What would be the point of wanting to attain buddhahood unless one wants to be free of birth? If one does not accept rebirth, there is no need for Buddhadharma at all.

Rebirth is central existential problem the Buddha wanted to solve.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:56 pm
Of course. What would be the point of wanting to attain buddhahood unless one wants to be free of birth? If one does not accept rebirth, there is no need for Buddhadharma at all.

Rebirth is central existential problem the Buddha wanted to solve.
Um, yes ... I agree.

However, that is not the same as asserting that rebirth must be proven, using induction, to a beginning practitioner.

In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.

It is a matter of placing trust in a view, which then is practiced.

If this were not the case then we could all just reason our way to immortality.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:03 pm

In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.
The old Dharmakīrti heuristic

All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.

Some people instinctively accept rebirth. For them, this chain of reasoning is superfluous.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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CedarTree
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by CedarTree » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:03 pm

In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.
The old Dharmakīrti heuristic

All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.

Some people instinctively accept rebirth. For them, this chain of reasoning is superfluous.

I've studied a bit of philosophy of mind and I think this is kind of weak.

Practice, Practice, Practice

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Shockingly, the old Dharmakirti heuristic appears to have the same issues as the old Descartes heuristic.

I could poke as many holes in this as I could with Aquinas' "proofs" for the existence of God.

... and once again the pink hippos are flying. Enjoy, everyone ...

Image
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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CedarTree
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by CedarTree » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:30 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Shockingly, the old Dharmakirti heuristic appears to have the same issues as the old Descartes heuristic.

I could poke as many holes in this as I could with Aquinas' "proofs" for the existence of God.

... and once again the pink hippos are flying. Enjoy, everyone ...

Image
Omg is that gif amazing lmao

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:39 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Shockingly, the old Dharmakirti heuristic appears to have the same issues as the old Descartes heuristic.

I could poke as many holes in this as I could with Aquinas' "proofs" for the existence of God.

Please try. You make a lot of assertions, but offer up nothing in terms of proofs and reasonings. Get serious or get along.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:40 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:03 pm

In other words, acceptance of rebirth by that practitioner is not the result of a reasoning process.
The old Dharmakīrti heuristic

All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.

Some people instinctively accept rebirth. For them, this chain of reasoning is superfluous.

I've studied a bit of philosophy of mind and I think this is kind of weak.

Because?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:39 pm
Please try.
No. But since I trust you, and I know you wuv me, I'll take it on faith for now.

:heart:
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:44 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:39 pm
Please try.
No. But since I trust you, and I know you wuv me, I'll take it on faith for now.

:heart:
Image
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:47 pm

Fine.

I got a thing about chickens.

Malcolm, you re-state Dharmakirti's argument as follows:
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm
All conditioned things have causes. Mind, being conditioned, has a cause. If mind has a material cause it must come from the body.
If mind does not have a material cause it must have a nonmaterial cause.
If the mind has a nonmaterial cause it must be conditioned, since the unconditioned has no causal action.
The only nonmaterial thing that can cause mind is mind.
Since mind streams are unique and independent, this present moment of mind must have as its cause a previous moment of mind.
Since the mind does not arise from matter, then, this life's first moment of consciousness at conception must have its cause in a previous moment of mind prior to conception.
This cannot be his full argument, since there is no premise or argument that shows that the mind does not arise from matter.

There has to be some argument he makes somewhere that tries to prove that mind does not have a material cause.
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:11 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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