Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

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kirtu
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Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by kirtu » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:42 am

Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Motova
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:45 am

kirtu wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:42 am
No.

Also if you are on the fence about rebirth get some books on how to access past lives with hypnosis and age regression.

Motova
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:48 am

Secular Buddhists are just dependent thinkers hooked to praise and fame dealt by lab coats and their worshipers.

"I don't believe in reincarnation or clairvoyance."

"Well have you ever tried testing things out?"

"No."

"You don't even understand the essence of science."

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:15 am

So the scientific consensus is that hypnosis and past life regression has confirmed reincarnation.

I must have missed the headline that changed the world.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Motova
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:45 am

I am saying people need to test things out for themselves.

It's so easy to get outside the materialism box, you just need participation and diligence.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm

Rebirth is the flying spaghetti monster of Buddhism.

It is an item of faith.

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.

Like any other item of faith (God, free will, immortality, etc) it has only one purpose - to present the possibility of a course of action other than sticking a gun in one's mouth.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Motova
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:54 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm
Rebirth is the flying spaghetti monster of Buddhism.

It is an item of faith.

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.

Like any other item of faith (God, free will, immortality, etc) it has only one purpose - to present the possibility of a course of action other than sticking a gun in one's mouth.
Are you a secular buddhist?

Norwegian
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Norwegian » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:33 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm
Rebirth is the flying spaghetti monster of Buddhism.

It is an item of faith.

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.

Like any other item of faith (God, free will, immortality, etc) it has only one purpose - to present the possibility of a course of action other than sticking a gun in one's mouth.
If you're a practitioner of common Mahayana, access to your past lives can be had with the attainment of the 4th dhyana. That's not faith, that's direct experience.

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:37 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.
See Dharmakirti, he shows rebirth is true via logic. It is not demonstrable empirically because ordinary people do not have a means of cognition available to them with which they may verify it.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:37 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:15 am
So the scientific consensus is that hypnosis and past life regression has confirmed reincarnation.

I must have missed the headline that changed the world.
No, but this happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project

Image

Seeker12
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:37 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.
See Dharmakirti, he shows rebirth is true via logic. It is not demonstrable empirically because ordinary people do not have a means of cognition available to them with which they may verify it.
Where exactly can an English speaker see this? Would that be found in Foundations of Dharmakirti's Philosophy by John D. Dunne? I don't know of any direct full translations of Dharmakirti in English otherwise other than select excerpts.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

Simon E.
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Simon E. » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:52 pm

There is a lot of Buddhism without rebirth.

There is no Buddhadharma without rebirth.
Gone fishin' :smile:

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:56 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:54 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm
Rebirth is the flying spaghetti monster of Buddhism.

It is an item of faith.

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.

Like any other item of faith (God, free will, immortality, etc) it has only one purpose - to present the possibility of a course of action other than sticking a gun in one's mouth.
Are you a secular buddhist?
Absolutely not.

;)

In fact I think any thought system that refuses to include at least one of these items of faith (God, free will, immortality) is deceiving itself.

Hume said that we can philosophize about causation all we want - we still leave the room by the door, not the window. Kant said that we can philosophize about God, free will and immortality all we want - we still act as if there was objective morality. Buddha said that life is suffering - but that we can still realize at least a generic image of something that is not suffering.

We do not have any idea whether the flying pink hippo named "rebirth" is more or less useful than the other flying pink hippos called "God" or "Free Will" or "Immortality". Ultimately, just like the bible-thumping Baptists, we have a take a leap of faith.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:37 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.
See Dharmakirti, he shows rebirth is true via logic. It is not demonstrable empirically because ordinary people do not have a means of cognition available to them with which they may verify it.
Yes unfortunately I don't subscribe to Gnostic Elite Weekly. I prefer Cat Fancy.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Motova
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:07 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:56 pm
Motova wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:54 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm
Rebirth is the flying spaghetti monster of Buddhism.

It is an item of faith.

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.

Like any other item of faith (God, free will, immortality, etc) it has only one purpose - to present the possibility of a course of action other than sticking a gun in one's mouth.
Are you a secular buddhist?
Ultimately, just like the bible-thumping Baptists, we have a take a leap of faith.
How is it any different than a scientist or engineer or doctor practicing their profession when they haven't seen an atom or any of the research that forms the foundation of their practice?

Lay consumerists are just as, probably more, religiously fanatical about their sciencetechnology cult than any other religion.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:07 pm
How is it any different than a scientist or engineer or doctor practicing their profession when they haven't seen an atom or any of the research that forms the foundation of their practice?
It may not be different at all, who knows. But to be an engineer you have to get an engineering degree, and I just graduated from kindergarten. So the only thing I have to go on is to trust that the few grown-ups I've heard about that actually made correct career choices might know what they're talking about. This is a matter of faith.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Motova
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:23 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 pm
Motova wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:07 pm
How is it any different than a scientist or engineer or doctor practicing their profession when they haven't seen an atom or any of the research that forms the foundation of their practice?
It may not be different at all, who knows.
I know, it's not different at all.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:28 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:07 pm
Lay consumerists are just as, probably more, religiously fanatical about their sciencetechnology cult than any other religion.
Certainly. And as we all know, there are fanatical Buddhists as well. And fanatical lunatics too.

But as we all also know, when someone gets fanatical, they're just trying to convince themselves and everyone else that when they went into their attic to check that their favorite pink hippo was still there, it really was.

Unfortunately pink hippos don't work like that. When you go into the attic to check if it is there, it mysteriously manages to fly into your neighbor's attic instead. And then when you leave, it flies back into your attic again.

Also unfortunately, however, although it is to some degree crazy, we have to believe in it. Don't blame me, it's not exactly a normal world.

Just because there are fanatics who will try to convince you that your pink hippo should really be called "science" or "god" or "guru", doesn't mean we don't have to choose what to call it for ourselves. We do.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Malcolm
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:37 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm

It cannot be demonstrated either empirically or logically.
See Dharmakirti, he shows rebirth is true via logic. It is not demonstrable empirically because ordinary people do not have a means of cognition available to them with which they may verify it.
Yes unfortunately I don't subscribe to Gnostic Elite Weekly. I prefer Cat Fancy.

Do we really hold the mistaken cognitions of ordinary people to be the standard of truth?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pm
Do we really hold the mistaken cognitions of ordinary people to be the standard of truth?
Is it really necessary to build a CERN Large Hadron Collider in my basement in order to convince myself that the Higgs boson particle exists before I start learning about chemistry?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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