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Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:33 am
by kirtu
Part 2:




Part 3:


Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:36 am
by kirtu
Part 4:




Part 5:



Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:03 am
by Mkoll
Can you give a TLDW of his presentation?

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:43 am
by SunWuKong
Motova wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:48 am
Secular Buddhists are just dependent thinkers hooked to praise and fame dealt by lab coats and their worshipers.

"I don't believe in reincarnation or clairvoyance."

"Well have you ever tried testing things out?"

"No."

"You don't even understand the essence of science."
Buddhist are not secular. Period. But what they might or might not belief is a matter of faith. Period. Discuss amongst yourselves. Period.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:01 pm
by Coëmgenu
CedarTree wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:33 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:44 pm
Do we really hold the mistaken cognitions of ordinary people to be the standard of truth?
Is it really necessary to build a CERN Large Hadron Collider in my basement in order to convince myself that the Higgs boson particle exists before I start learning about chemistry?

PuerAzaelis I am not quoting this post for any particular reason just wanted to say I enjoy you stirring the pot. Keeps shit honest and a bit more on it's toes.

And I subscribe to rebirth but I realize exactly what your getting at and it's on point so far as people providing weak apologetics.

The weak apologetics reminds me of those lame Christian ones that literally destroyed the tradition. They had this rich corpus of theology and understanding and then these lame apologetics and creationism science started popping up :P
Materialist Atheists and Biblical Creationists have something in common: both are materialists. Despite believing in a non-material God, and non-material spirits, these kinds of Christians read their scriptures as materialists. It says God make it in six days, therefore, it has to literally mean created in six days. And you can add up the numbers in the Bible to find the age of the world.

No religion does this. If you were to approach the Nihon Shoki in the way that such Christians read the Bible you end up with a reality that 'started' some time in the 500s AD. If you approach Buddhist scripture in such a way they send you to the loony bin.

I don't think it is a coincidence that some Christian sects developed parallel-yet-opposing materialisms to combat critique coming at them from the direction of Atheistic Materialisms.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:19 pm
by Coëmgenu
I think there is definitely Buddhism without rebirth, because many Buddhists (myself included) only have a tangential idea of what 'Buddhist' rebirth even is, inasmuch as they/we can even try to say "sure, my conception of rebirth is definitely mostly orthodox, I just have a few questions".

Its clear that you aren't annihilated. It is clear that you don't continue as if nothing happened. Nothing else is substantially clear.

My boyfriend asked his Vietnamese Buddhist hairdresser if he believed in reincarnation, and he said yes, because he thought that the Buddha would give everyone a second chance. That's some folk Buddhism for you. That's also, IMO some 'real' Buddhism for you, depending on how one wants to define 'real', 'Buddhism', and depending on if one is a pessimist or optimist.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:34 pm
by Malcolm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:19 pm
I think there is definitely Buddhism without rebirth, because many Buddhists (myself included) only have a tangential idea of what 'Buddhist' rebirth even is, inasmuch as they/we can even try to say "sure, my conception of rebirth is definitely mostly orthodox, I just have a few questions".
If only people would study Indian masters like Vasubandhu, etc. Or even the Buddha:
[The Buddha continued:]
O  Ānanda, because of this causality, I know that sense contact arises from the cause of a mental and physical process, and that depending on
a mental and physical process there arises sense contact. The meaning of causal dependence that I intend to explain can be found here.

O  Ānanda, what does it mean to say that depending on consciousness there arises the mental and physical process? If consciousness does not enter into the mother’s womb, could a mental and physical process arise?
— Great Causality Sutra

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:39 pm
by Simon E.
That would be considered by some notable Buddhist teachers to be a non-sequitur Ceomgenu.

The criterion according to those teachers is not what we identify with.
It is rather what drives our practice of Dharma.

Self-identifying as 'Buddhist' they would say, is not enough.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:17 pm
by Coëmgenu
Relating to the earlier point about Ven Dharmakīrti and the inability of his proofs to satisfy physicalists/materialists:

You actually need to agree a bit first before you can disagree at all and have that disagreement be a 'debate' and not a 'fight' or some sort. A 'Buddhist' debating with a 'Materialist', from both perspectives, is a fruitless endavour, almost as fruitless as the myriad creation vs evolution debates that happen in the States. This is because a human being needs to play chess with a human being. If one plays chess with a pigeon, regardless of how well one plays, the pigeon will just knock the pieces off and defecate on the board. To both the 'Buddhist', and the 'Atheist' alike, the other is, functionally, the pigeon, because both sides can't even agree on how to debate, before the debate begins.

Both sides can't even agree on the rules of chess, or what chess is, before they start to play.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:16 pm
by Motova
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:17 pm
Relating to the earlier point about Ven Dharmakīrti and the inability of his proofs to satisfy physicalists/materialists:

You actually need to agree a bit first before you can disagree at all and have that disagreement be a 'debate' and not a 'fight' or some sort. A 'Buddhist' debating with a 'Materialist', from both perspectives, is a fruitless endavour, almost as fruitless as the myriad creation vs evolution debates that happen in the States. This is because a human being needs to play chess with a human being. If one plays chess with a pigeon, regardless of how well one plays, the pigeon will just knock the pieces off and defecate on the board. To both the 'Buddhist', and the 'Atheist' alike, the other is, functionally, the pigeon, because both sides can't even agree on how to debate, before the debate begins.

Both sides can't even agree on the rules of chess, or what chess is, before they start to play.
There is no need to debate, I already settled that.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:52 pm
by Motova
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:19 pm
I think there is definitely Buddhism without rebirth, because many Buddhists (myself included) only have a tangential idea of what 'Buddhist' rebirth even is, inasmuch as they/we can even try to say "sure, my conception of rebirth is definitely mostly orthodox, I just have a few questions".

Its clear that you aren't annihilated. It is clear that you don't continue as if nothing happened. Nothing else is substantially clear.

My boyfriend asked his Vietnamese Buddhist hairdresser if he believed in reincarnation, and he said yes, because he thought that the Buddha would give everyone a second chance. That's some folk Buddhism for you. That's also, IMO some 'real' Buddhism for you, depending on how one wants to define 'real', 'Buddhism', and depending on if one is a pessimist or optimist.
Stop trying to define everything. You will never define and debate your way into Dharma.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:08 pm
by CedarTree
Coëmgenu was pointing at something a lot of you are not understanding.

That assumed premises have to be drawn out and terms accepted for the conversation.

Reason being, a lot of the premises you guys are assuming are not as "certain" as you think they are.

Once you assume them their can still be a conversation but it becomes pretty linear to certain conclusions.

Malcolm had to admit as much when he got pressed on the logic he was presenting.

If you assume certain stances then the logic and arguments put forth by these different masters are very coherent.

There is also the point that conceptual coherence using human epistemology may be inherently limited but that is a very different conversation.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:18 pm
by Motova
Motova wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:52 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:19 pm
I think there is definitely Buddhism without rebirth, because many Buddhists (myself included) only have a tangential idea of what 'Buddhist' rebirth even is, inasmuch as they/we can even try to say "sure, my conception of rebirth is definitely mostly orthodox, I just have a few questions".

Its clear that you aren't annihilated. It is clear that you don't continue as if nothing happened. Nothing else is substantially clear.

My boyfriend asked his Vietnamese Buddhist hairdresser if he believed in reincarnation, and he said yes, because he thought that the Buddha would give everyone a second chance. That's some folk Buddhism for you. That's also, IMO some 'real' Buddhism for you, depending on how one wants to define 'real', 'Buddhism', and depending on if one is a pessimist or optimist.
Stop trying to define everything. You will never define and debate your way into Dharma.
Furthermore, I've spent thousands of dollars on Buddhist and non-Buddhist books and they're nothing compared to an authentic teacher.

You should check out Riwoche and see Khenpo Sonam Rinpoche: http://www.riwoche.com/SonamRinpoche.html

Kathog Trungpa Rinpoche just arrived in Toronto to do a series of teachings these holidays that I bet would interest you: http://www.riwoche.com/calendar/KathogT ... poster.pdf

Take the 92 Oshawa GO bus to the Scarborough Town Centre, then subway to Dundas West, and then walk for 15-20min and you're there.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:43 pm
by Malcolm
CedarTree wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:08 pm

Malcolm had to admit as much when he got pressed on the logic he was presenting.
That is not the case. I pointed out that Dharmakīrti's arguments were presented in the form of heuristic which basically state that if a person believes mind arises from matter, there was no further point in the discussion. Basically, no one in India bothered arguing with the Carvakas. What is the point of arguing with someone who believes only in direct perception as a valid means of knowledge?

My discussion with PA was centered around whether or not that was his/her POV.

Re: Is there Buddhism without rebirth?

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:51 pm
by Grigoris
Stay on topic people.

Thank you.