Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

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Simon E.
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:17 am

Well, you can practice Buddhadharma or you can practice according to the Gita...you have a choice.
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Mantrik
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Mantrik » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:34 pm

Beautiful chanting. :)
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Grigoris
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:09 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:17 am
Well, you can practice Buddhadharma or you can practice according to the Gita...you have a choice.
You can try and combine it, could be interesting... :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm

Yes you could. Take the first quoted verse about 'The Eternal Reality Of The Immortal Soul' for example. Squaring that with the doctrine of anatta could fill a rainy afternoon or two. :smile:
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Grigoris
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm
Yes you could. Take the first quoted verse about 'The Eternal Reality Of The Immortal Soul' for example. Squaring that with the doctrine of anatta could fill a rainy afternoon or two. :smile:
Depends on your view of the Tathagatagarbha.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm
Yes you could. Take the first quoted verse about 'The Eternal Reality Of The Immortal Soul' for example. Squaring that with the doctrine of anatta could fill a rainy afternoon or two. :smile:
Depends on your view of the Tathagatagarbha.
Yes, afterall the doctrine of annata is an expedient means/medicine. It only appeared as an antidote to the fixation of a (seperate) self.
It's relative. Don't let the cure become the sickness.

I like the Avadhuta Gita :tongue:
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Simon E.
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:07 pm

That would certainly while away the first few of those rainy hours Greg.. :smile:
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:09 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:05 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm
Yes you could. Take the first quoted verse about 'The Eternal Reality Of The Immortal Soul' for example. Squaring that with the doctrine of anatta could fill a rainy afternoon or two. :smile:
Depends on your view of the Tathagatagarbha.
Yes, afterall the doctrine of annata is an expedient means/medicine. It only appeared as an antidote to the fixation of a (seperate) self.
It's relative. Don't let the cure become the sickness.

I like the Avadhuta Gita :tongue:

:popcorn:
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:09 pm

Life is too short. Buddha Dharma is difficult enough.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm
Yes you could. Take the first quoted verse about 'The Eternal Reality Of The Immortal Soul' for example. Squaring that with the doctrine of anatta could fill a rainy afternoon or two. :smile:
Depends on your view of the Tathagatagarbha.
No, it really doesn't since the tathāgatagarbha sūtras definitely rebut the notion that tathāgatagarbha bears any resemblance to the atman of the tīrthikas.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:30 pm
No, it really doesn't since the tathāgatagarbha sūtras definitely rebut the notion that tathāgatagarbha bears any resemblance to the atman of the tīrthikas.
While I agree, there are plenty of others out there that will disagree. Not that I want to play the Devil's advocate.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:57 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 pm
Yes you could. Take the first quoted verse about 'The Eternal Reality Of The Immortal Soul' for example. Squaring that with the doctrine of anatta could fill a rainy afternoon or two. :smile:
Depends on your view of the Tathagatagarbha.
No, it really doesn't since the tathāgatagarbha sūtras definitely rebut the notion that tathāgatagarbha bears any resemblance to the atman of the tīrthikas.
anatta/atman...

neti neti :lol:
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Malcolm
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:15 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:30 pm
No, it really doesn't since the tathāgatagarbha sūtras definitely rebut the notion that tathāgatagarbha bears any resemblance to the atman of the tīrthikas.
While I agree, there are plenty of others out there that will disagree. Not that I want to play the Devil's advocate.
Those people who disagree are simply ignorant of the Buddha's teachings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:16 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:05 pm

neti neti :lol:
Also irrelevant to Buddhadharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:16 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:05 pm

neti neti :lol:
Also irrelevant to Buddhadharma.
Not so, in Buddhism its called "don't know" (kwan um) or "non-dwelling mind" (hui hai) for instance.
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Malcolm
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:31 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:16 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:05 pm

neti neti :lol:
Also irrelevant to Buddhadharma.
Not so, in Buddhism its called "don't know" (kwan um) or "non-dwelling mind" (hui hai) for instance.
It is so: neti neti is an affirming negation. "Don't know" is a non-affirming negation.

People who do not properly study tenet systems often make the mistake of conflating tīrthika views with the view of Buddhadharma. It's a pity, because they block their realization with sophistry and concepts.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:31 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:16 pm


Also irrelevant to Buddhadharma.
Not so, in Buddhism its called "don't know" (kwan um) or "non-dwelling mind" (hui hai) for instance.
It is so: neti neti is an affirming negation. "Don't know" is a non-affirming negation.

People who do not properly study tenet systems often make the mistake of conflating tīrthika views with the view of Buddhadharma. It's a pity, because they block their realization with sophistry and concepts.
In the interest of further representation of ever-underrepresented sophism, I think that neti neti is identical/functionally-the-same to/as the Śrāvaka Ven Ṭhānissaro's "not-self as strategy" discourse. I also do not think that his "not-self as strategy" discourse holds up well under critical scrutiny, though.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:31 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:16 pm


Also irrelevant to Buddhadharma.
Not so, in Buddhism its called "don't know" (kwan um) or "non-dwelling mind" (hui hai) for instance.
It is so: neti neti is an affirming negation. "Don't know" is a non-affirming negation.

People who do not properly study tenet systems often make the mistake of conflating tīrthika views with the view of Buddhadharma. It's a pity, because they block their realization with sophistry and concepts.
I understand your concern but neti neti is non-affirmative, that is if understood and practised correctly. But it is not my intention to confuse, for myself practising under Ch'an and vendata systems the practise is the same, the "view" I have no business with, just the expedients and the outcome of practise.
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Malcolm
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:47 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:39 pm

I understand your concern but neti neti is non-affirmative, that is if understood and practised correctly. But it is not my intention to confuse, for myself practising under Ch'an and vendata systems the practise is the same, the "view" I have no business with, just the expedients and the outcome of practise.
Neti neti is most definitely an affirming negation. What does it affirm? The Upanishadic atman. The Buddha refutes this atman.

Which atman does the Buddha not refute? The conventional atman imputed upon the five aggregates.

The view of Chan and Vedanta cannot be the same. It is quite impossible.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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