Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:47 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:39 pm

I understand your concern but neti neti is non-affirmative, that is if understood and practised correctly. But it is not my intention to confuse, for myself practising under Ch'an and vendata systems the practise is the same, the "view" I have no business with, just the expedients and the outcome of practise.
Neti neti is most definitely an affirming negation. What does it affirm? The Upanishadic atman. The Buddha refutes this atman.

Which atman does the Buddha not refute? The conventional atman imputed upon the five aggregates.

The view of Chan and Vedanta cannot be the same. It is quite impossible.
Why do you keep up bringing views?
Study under a vendata (the right one) teacher for a few years and then tell me "non-dwelling" practise either is Buddhist or "Hindu"

It is not that the wise spend there days thinking "not this or not that" self or no-self, I am the body-mind, not the body-mind, that is merely the practise of prisoners.

neti neti is the same antidote or prerequisite method for "beginners" as "don't know" again if instructed and taught proparly, its medicine nothing else.
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Malcolm
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:07 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:57 pm


Why do you keep up bringing views?
Because, as the great Zen master Śākyamuni Buddha observed, right view is the first limb of the path.

And also, the great Zen master Āryadeva stated, "Realization comes from the view."

In other words you cannot get anywhere practicing with the incorrect views of nonbuddhists.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:07 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:57 pm


Why do you keep up bringing views?
Because, as the great Zen master Śākyamuni Buddha observed, right view is the first limb of the path.

And also, the great Zen master Āryadeva stated, "Realization comes from the view."

In other words you cannot get anywhere practicing with the incorrect views of nonBuddhists.
I agree that right view is the basis, but what I meant is that the PRACTISE of neti neti or "dont know" is not a view. If you say it cannot be so then I guess realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.
and we can only rely on old dead scriptures.

I just shared from experience how I see the practise the "same" I dont care much what wikipedia says or how learned scholers prattle about the so called truth.

Its not important anyhow, its a Buddhist forum.
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Malcolm
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:16 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm
realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.
Adyashanti is definitely full of shit. Total fraud.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:16 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm
realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.
Adyashanti is definitely full of shit. Total fraud.
Interesting none of my Ch'an teacher ever said such a thing, can you elaborate?
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:21 pm



Kevin

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Norwegian » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:21 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm
I guess realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.
Correct. Adyashanti has nothing to do with Buddhadharma.
and we can only rely on old dead scriptures.
We rely on texts that are actual Buddhavacana, as well as relying on realized Buddhist masters. This does not include Adyashanti or any other non-Buddhist.
I just shared from experience how I see the practise the "same" I dont care much what wikipedia says or how learned scholers prattle about the so called truth.
Your personal opinion is sadly uninformed.
Its not important anyhow, its a Buddhist forum.
On the contrary, it's rather important actually, to get these things right, if not you're bound to end up confused about all of it. And if you're confused, you won't get anywhere. And as for this being a Buddhist forum, that is right. It's a forum dedicated to Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Hinduism, New Age views, and so on, are not Mahayana or Vajrayana.

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:31 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:16 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm
realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.
Adyashanti is definitely full of shit. Total fraud.
Interesting none of my Ch'an teacher ever said such a thing, can you elaborate?

For example, this statement:
At this very moment, Reality and completeness are in plain sight. In fact, the only thing there is to see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or feel, is Reality, or God if you like.
This is completely wrong in every possible way. It sounds groovy, but it is total bullshit. If sense objects were reality, everyone and every creature would be free of delusion at all times. This is merely one of many problems with his "teachings." It is a bunch of uniquely Bay Area New Age Bullshit.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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fuki
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:31 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:16 pm


Adyashanti is definitely full of shit. Total fraud.
Interesting none of my Ch'an teacher ever said such a thing, can you elaborate?

For example, this statement:
At this very moment, Reality and completeness are in plain sight. In fact, the only thing there is to see, hear, smell, taste, touch, or feel, is Reality, or God if you like.
This is completely wrong in every possible way. It sounds groovy, but it is total bullshit. If sense objects were reality, everyone and every creature would be free of delusion at all times. This is merely one of many problems with his "teachings." It is a bunch of uniquely Bay Area New Age Bullshit.
Ah I see what you mean, yes it looks like BS I agree, then again I know famous zen teachers who said something similar, it depends on the context and the function of the speech. To just put something like that in itself might be confusing, the perks of the intraweb.

can you tell me where that quote is from?
I suspect thats its about the nature of perception instead of what you think its about.
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https://meldpuntbg.nl/

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:54 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:21 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm
I guess realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.
Correct. Adyashanti has nothing to do with Buddhadharma.
and we can only rely on old dead scriptures.
We rely on texts that are actual Buddhavacana, as well as relying on realized Buddhist masters. This does not include Adyashanti or any other non-Buddhist.
I just shared from experience how I see the practise the "same" I dont care much what wikipedia says or how learned scholers prattle about the so called truth.
Your personal opinion is sadly uninformed.
Its not important anyhow, its a Buddhist forum.
On the contrary, it's rather important actually, to get these things right, if not you're bound to end up confused about all of it. And if you're confused, you won't get anywhere. And as for this being a Buddhist forum, that is right. It's a forum dedicated to Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Hinduism, New Age views, and so on, are not Mahayana or Vajrayana.
Yes that is what DW is known for, the Victorious ones who get it right reside here. :tongue:
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:55 pm

Virgo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:21 pm


Kevin
:jumping:

no worries.
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:05 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:53 pm

Ah I see what you mean, yes it looks like BS I agree, then again I know famous zen teachers who said something similar, it depends on the context and the function of the speech. To just put something like that in itself might be confusing, the perks of the intraweb.

can you tell me where that quote is from?
I suspect thats its about the nature of perception instead of what you think its about.
It comes from this:

https://d1c742hwzmv7ke.cloudfront.net/l ... _Ebook.pdf

It is filled with similar moronic platitudes and nonsense, like this little gem of meaninglessness:

Just as presence is an expression of being, so too is being an expression of the Infinite. The Infinite is ultimate Reality, and is beyond all conceptualizations and experiences. It is the ultimate ground of all being, all existence, all dimensions, and all perceptions. It is transcendent of all categories, all descriptions, all imaginings. It is beyond ego, self, presence, being (and non- being), and oneness, but it is not other than these either. Neither conceivable nor experienceable, the Infinite knows itself through a simple intuitive regard it has for itself in every aspect of itself. Thus the only thing that realizes the Infinite is the Infinite. And only such realization brings an end to the mind’s restless search for God, Truth, and meaning.
Sadly, there are people that just lap up this kind of spiritual soft drink and rot their intellectual teeth.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:07 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:16 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm
realized teachers such as adyashanti must be full of BS too.
Adyashanti is definitely full of shit. Total fraud.
Interesting none of my Ch'an teacher ever said such a thing, can you elaborate?
LOl, I missed these few posts. My military video was in response to the Hindu vs. Buddhist thing.

Here we go again...

Kevin

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:13 pm

Virgo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:07 pm

LOl, I missed these few posts. My military video was in response to the Hindu vs. Buddhist thing.

Here we go again...

Kevin
I got that ;)

20 years of practise and 11 years of online forums I'm no stranger to it and I never mingle, I just thought why not share my experience with the practise of "neti neti" I'm a bit cold when it comes to "non-zen" forums so I forget how easily a can of worms might open if I mention anything not Buddhadharma, sorry my bad. It's all good.
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:15 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:13 pm

20 years of practise and 11 years of online forums I'm no stranger to it and I never mingle, I just thought why not share my experience with the practise of "neti neti" I'm a bit cold when it comes to "non-zen" forums so I forget how easily a can of worms might open if I mention anything not Buddhadharma, sorry my bad. It's all good.
No need to apologize. And Hindu Dharma and practices are just fine. It is when people think that those views and practices lead to what Buddhists define as liberation, that is where we run into a problem.

:namaste: Kevin

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:05 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:53 pm

Ah I see what you mean, yes it looks like BS I agree, then again I know famous zen teachers who said something similar, it depends on the context and the function of the speech. To just put something like that in itself might be confusing, the perks of the intraweb.

can you tell me where that quote is from?
I suspect thats its about the nature of perception instead of what you think its about.
It comes from this:

https://d1c742hwzmv7ke.cloudfront.net/l ... _Ebook.pdf

It is filled with similar moronic platitudes and nonsense, like this little gem of meaninglessness:

Just as presence is an expression of being, so too is being an expression of the Infinite. The Infinite is ultimate Reality, and is beyond all conceptualizations and experiences. It is the ultimate ground of all being, all existence, all dimensions, and all perceptions. It is transcendent of all categories, all descriptions, all imaginings. It is beyond ego, self, presence, being (and non- being), and oneness, but it is not other than these either. Neither conceivable nor experienceable, the Infinite knows itself through a simple intuitive regard it has for itself in every aspect of itself. Thus the only thing that realizes the Infinite is the Infinite. And only such realization brings an end to the mind’s restless search for God, Truth, and meaning.
Sadly, there are people that just lap up this kind of spiritual soft drink and rot their intellectual teeth.
Thanks Malcolm, the e-book doesn't load for me but funny enough when I lay in the hospital in 2016 someone gave me this book as a present for ppl identify me as a Buddhist, (or a fraud haha) it was a very nice gesture but never read more then a few pages. This is a nice time to start reading it, if I have anything to share regarding our conversation I'll get back to you via PM, it's a thin book.

ps my mom bought me 2 books from Nisargadatta for christmas she doesnt really know the difference between Buddhism and "Hinduism" :lol:
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:21 pm

Virgo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:15 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:13 pm

20 years of practise and 11 years of online forums I'm no stranger to it and I never mingle, I just thought why not share my experience with the practise of "neti neti" I'm a bit cold when it comes to "non-zen" forums so I forget how easily a can of worms might open if I mention anything not Buddhadharma, sorry my bad. It's all good.
No need to apologize. And Hindu Dharma and practices are just fine. It is when people think that those views and practices lead to what Buddhists define as liberation, that is where we run into a problem.

:namaste: Kevin
Yes, I never intended to say that it does or doesn't nor do I find such conversations to hold any merit though.
I'm 95% Buddhist btw eventhough there are no Buddhists only empty costumes pieced together from discarded bits of imagination
;)
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:33 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:21 pm

Yes, I never intended to say that it does or doesn't nor do I find such conversations to hold any merit though.
I'm 95% Buddhist btw eventhough there are no Buddhists only empty costumes pieced together from discarded bits of imagination
;)
Views govern the realm of the intellect, however, they also guide our meditation, and so on. Wrong views, can and will block our realization because of that. Therefore study and reflection become essential. Discussion is part and parcel of study and reflection, especially discussion with gentlemen like Malcolm, who are very learned. :anjali:

Kevin

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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by fuki » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:42 pm

Virgo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:33 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:21 pm

Yes, I never intended to say that it does or doesn't nor do I find such conversations to hold any merit though.
I'm 95% Buddhist btw eventhough there are no Buddhists only empty costumes pieced together from discarded bits of imagination
;)
Views govern the realm of the intellect, however, they also guide our meditation, and so on. Wrong views, can and will block our realization because of that. Therefore study and reflection become essential. Discussion is part and parcel of study and reflection, especially discussion with gentlemen like Malcolm, who are very learned. :anjali:

Kevin
Yes and no (for me) for instance seeing dependent origination in everyday life (so not intellectual study) is a spontaneous observation or seeing which compared to the study of DO the doctrine is useless, it's the dharma of prajna. But as a Ch'an practisioner I also see many ppl holding "right view" according to the doctrine but yet are completely stuck in a loophole of their own narrative, right isn't always right if you catch my drift. I enjoy discussing with Malcolm we had some interesting encounters on E-sangha but then I left and resided on ZFI only, Malcolm is very learned indeed much more then I will ever be. Wrong view is the obstacle for sure, but right view can be just as much an obstacle, if the view is merely intellectual.
:anjali:
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Re: Bhagavad Gita 2; 11-25

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:03 pm

fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:42 pm
Virgo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:33 pm
fuki wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:21 pm

Yes, I never intended to say that it does or doesn't nor do I find such conversations to hold any merit though.
I'm 95% Buddhist btw eventhough there are no Buddhists only empty costumes pieced together from discarded bits of imagination
;)
Views govern the realm of the intellect, however, they also guide our meditation, and so on. Wrong views, can and will block our realization because of that. Therefore study and reflection become essential. Discussion is part and parcel of study and reflection, especially discussion with gentlemen like Malcolm, who are very learned. :anjali:

Kevin
Yes and no (for me) for instance seeing dependent origination in everyday life (so not intellectual study) is a spontaneous observation or seeing which compared to the study of DO the doctrine is useless, it's the dharma of prajna. But as a Ch'an practisioner I also see many ppl holding "right view" according to the doctrine but yet are completely stuck in a loophole of their own narrative, right isn't always right if you catch my drift. I enjoy discussing with Malcolm we had some interesting encounters on E-sangha but then I left and resided on ZFI only, Malcolm is very learned indeed much more then I will ever be. Wrong view is the obstacle for sure, but right view can be just as much an obstacle, if the view is merely intellectual.
:anjali:
There are two kinds of right view: mundane right view and transcendent right view. The latter arises from the former. There can be a problem if a person mistakes their mundane conceptual right view for the transcendent right view of realization. For this reason we need genuine teachers who can set us straight if we err in mistaking our conceptual right view for the right view of realization. But people like Adyashanti are so far away from anything remotely resembling right view, well...you know what I think. On the other hand, people like Adyadhanti, Andrew Cohen, Eckart Tolle, etc. are not for serious people. They are for people who like spiritual fast food. Even though I think they contain errors, the study of real Samkhya, Yoga, Vedanta is a serious thing which I respect greatly, even though I think their view is mistaken. But there is a lot for Buddhists to gain by studying real Indian tenets if only so they can avoid porting such mistaken views into their own practice.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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