Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

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kirtu
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Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:37 am

Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by Queequeg » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:33 pm

Kind of relevant.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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kirtu
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sat Sep 22, 2018 3:27 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:33 pm
Kind of relevant.
How so?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by Queequeg » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:15 pm

Following metaphors can get you wet, too.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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kirtu
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:31 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:15 pm
Following metaphors can get you wet, too.
What??? Porque? :shrug:

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:52 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:31 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:15 pm
Following metaphors can get you wet, too.
What??? Porque? :shrug:

Kirt
Metaphors can be misleading, like misreading GPS machines.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kirtu
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:52 pm
kirtu wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:31 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:15 pm
Following metaphors can get you wet, too.
What??? Porque? :shrug:

Kirt
Metaphors can be misleading, like misreading GPS machines.
Well yes, but the Garfield and Newland are correct in their use it Buddhism.

Queequeg's cryptic phrasing is throwing me ... perhaps the crocodile is after him ??

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:18 pm

Over explaining a joke is sure to kill it. Malcolm explained it better than I could.

Bertrand Russel observed we think only in metaphors. Everything is like something else. We co stantly use metaphors, not just Buddhists. In the end, though, metaphors are metaphors and never more.

Obvious statement is obvious.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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kirtu
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:25 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:18 pm
Over explaining a joke is sure to kill it. Malcolm explained it better than I could.

Bertrand Russel observed we think only in metaphors. Everything is like something else. We co stantly use metaphors, not just Buddhists. In the end, though, metaphors are metaphors and never more.
That's certainly true.

I didn't get the joke though (The Office of all things ?? and a car in water ??) and still don't but thanks!

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Queequeg
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by Queequeg » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:30 pm

Also, metaphors are references to something else. A good metaphor sort of captures some quality about the thing referenced. But they are not the same and sooner or later the parallel breaks down. Following literally gets you in a lake.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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kirtu
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Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:13 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:30 pm
Also, metaphors are references to something else. A good metaphor sort of captures some quality about the thing referenced. But they are not the same and sooner or later the parallel breaks down. Following literally gets you in a lake.
Wittgenstein and others, the perils of the "language game." These are obvious points of course. But the metaphor used .... was perhaps a bit muddy?, at least for moi.

:anjali:

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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The Cicada
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by The Cicada » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:32 pm

You guys are literally killing me with this discussion.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:51 am

I have the idea that there a ‘rogue metaphors’ - that is, metaphors that were originally devised to make a particular point, but then develop a life of their own, and start generating further implications which are widely accepted because the original metaphor has become so deeply embedded in cultural discourse that everyone assumes it. Language and culture are full of them.

The point about the Buddha was that he employed metaphors consciously and deliberately and with great effect. However even some of those metaphors have tended to go rogue, in the sense that they are bandied about by people who don’t really understand the metaphor but who think by repeating them, they are ‘expounding Buddhsm’.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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kirtu
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Re: Jay Garfield and Guy Newland on Metaphors in Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:01 pm

Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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