Brad Warner - Why Buddhist Teachers Go Bad

[kirtu]

Some pop psychology and perhaps it's really just a book plug ..... but perhaps he has something to say ....

[Bristollad]

Seems very personal - not sure how much it applies to anyone else.

[Rick]

Bookcase filled with big fat oversize horror and sci-fi books!

[KristenM]

Seems very personal - not sure how much it applies to anyone else.

I thought so, too. A lot of what he said may be true, though. Like I would agree that many people are searching for a perfect Buddha/Jesus figure to lead them and that's a lot of pressure to put on anyone.

[anjali]

Seems very personal - not sure how much it applies to anyone else.

Yeah, that sounds about right for the specifics he discusses. There are so many proximate causes. As far as I can tell, the basic reason Buddhist teachers (and others, including myself) go "bad" is because they lose the thread of their altruistic mind/bodhicitta. Per Shantideva,

However much happiness exists in the world,
All of it springs from wishing for the happiness of others;
However much suffering exists in this world,
All of it springs from desiring one's own happiness.

What need is there for lengthy explanations!
The childish work for their own benefit,
The sages act for the welfare of others,
Consider the difference between these two!

[Bristollad]

^^

[boda]

Yup, sounds completely autobiographical.

Spiritual leaders tend to be socially adept, which is a good part of what allows them to be leaders in the first place. Even if Brad were much of a leader (he's never had students, as such), he'd be an exception.

Even being autobiographical, Brad mostly contradicts his theory about the demand for perfection in that he's not known for doing 'bad' things. He's a vegetarian and I think a non-drinker. Condemns drug use, even for spiritual usage. I think he's mentioned having a relationship with a woman who attended his practice group but she wasn't a traditional 'student'. If he wants to reduce the demand for purity he's gonna have to try a lot harder.

[Knotty Veneer]

I'd cut Brad some slack here.

I think he's trying to find his way in a teaching role and still retain some integrity. I'm sure he's looking at folks of a similar vintage like Osel Mukpo or Noah Levine and wanting to avoid the traps they fell into.

I admire those who take on a eaching role (if legitimittized by their teacher of course) - they get a lot projected onto them - as this thread bears out.

I agree too with his stance on drugs - there is no "spiritual" use of drugs in Buddhism. He is right to call out folks like the "Buddhist Geeks" for going down that path and encouraging others to experiment with drugs.

[Simon E.]

[boda]

I admire those who take on a eaching role (if legitimittized by their teacher of course) - they get a lot projected onto them - as this thread bears out.

What exactly is being projected? The consensus seems to be that Brad is doing the projecting. We’re projecting his projecting?

I agree too with his stance on drugs - there is no "spiritual" use of drugs in Buddhism. He is right to call out folks like the "Buddhist Geeks" for going down that path and encouraging others to experiment with drugs.

Psychedelics might do him some good. His views appear a bit rigid at times and it could help his depression, if that’s still an issue for him, plus, it’ll diminish his purity in the eyes of the public, theoretically, and relieve the pressure needing to be like Jesus. What would Jesus do? Just say no to drugs.

[DharmaJunior]

We need an answer that people like...

Oh

[Knotty Veneer]

I admire those who take on a eaching role (if legitimittized by their teacher of course) - they get a lot projected onto them - as this thread bears out.

What exactly is being projected? The consensus seems to be that Brad is doing the projecting. We’re projecting his projecting?

I agree too with his stance on drugs - there is no "spiritual" use of drugs in Buddhism. He is right to call out folks like the "Buddhist Geeks" for going down that path and encouraging others to experiment with drugs.

Psychedelics might do him some good. His views appear a bit rigid at times and it could help his depression, if that’s still an issue for him, plus, it’ll diminish his purity in the eyes of the public, theoretically, and relieve the pressure needing to be like Jesus. What would Jesus do? Just say no to drugs.

You seem to know Brad Warner better than I but I think the guy is trying his best. He's not claiming to be something special.

Having some small experience in the matter, drug experiences are not spiritual. They are not a substitute for or equivalent to real insight gained thru practice. I wish this old lie would just die. I don't want to hear it anymore.

[Simon E.]

This.

[boda]

You seem to know Brad Warner better than I but I think the guy is trying his best. He's not claiming to be something special.

According to what he claims in the video, and elsewhere, he’s actively trying to not be perceived as something special. And that is something special. You seem to value it.

Having some small experience in the matter, drug experiences are not spiritual.

This isn’t really saying anything. It could mean that you got stoned once on weed.

They are not a substitute for or equivalent to real insight gained thru practice. I wish this old lie would just die. I don't want to hear it anymore.

Entheogens have been used by indigenous peoples for thousands of years, but you know the truth of the matter?

Anyway, don’t mind me. I can’t convince you of something you don’t want to hear.

[Knotty Veneer]

According to what he claims in the video, and elsewhere, he’s actively trying to not be perceived as something special. And that is something special. You seem to value it.

Something about Brad rubs you the wrong way. Ignore him if he doesn't do it for you.

Entheogens have been used by indigenous peoples for thousands of years, but you know the truth of the matter?

Would argue that what shamans are doing with drugs is different from what a Buddhist practitioner is doing through meditation. Drugs experiences are drug reliant. They can show that our common sense reality is only one way we could perceive the world. However, that experience, instructive though it may be for some, is not the same as real insight gained through practice. We are seeking clarity not experiences. I don't think drugs offer real insight.

If you want to try the "lazy man's enlightment" as I did, knock yourself out. Some people need to learn the hard way.

Anyway, don’t mind me. I can’t convince you of something you don’t want to hear.

Right back atcha!

[boda]

Something about Brad rubs you the wrong way. Ignore him if he doesn't do it for you.

The implicit attitude being expressed here is that Brad is a religious authority (has received Dharma transmission) and is therefore beyond questioning. If you disagree with him keep it to yourself, basically. According to Brad's reasoning this special treatment will tend to make Buddhist teachers "go bad." I'm sure you don't want to encourage them to go bad, so it appears to me that you and I, as well as everyone else who's chimed in, are in agreement. Special treatment doesn't necessarily lead to Buddhist teachers going bad.

Entheogens have been used by indigenous peoples for thousands of years, but you know the truth of the matter?

Would argue that what shamans are doing with drugs is different from what a Buddhist practitioner is doing through meditation. Drugs experiences are drug reliant. They can show that our common sense reality is only one way we could perceive the world. However, that experience, instructive though it may be for some, is not the same as real insight gained through practice. We are seeking clarity not experiences. I don't think drugs offer real insight.

It's quite common for people to believe that their own religion offers true or real insight and that all others are false.

If you want to try the "lazy man's enlightment" as I did, knock yourself out. Some people need to learn the hard way.

You haven't said anything about this experience so I can't begin to scrutinize it for myself.

Anyway, don’t mind me. I can’t convince you of something you don’t want to hear.

Right back atcha!

I'm open to hearing anything you have to say and haven't expressed an unwillingness to consider other views.

I've never tried psychedelics and probably never will because they're illegal where I live, to disclose my personal experience. There is extensive research to support what I've said on the topic, however.

[Knotty Veneer]

I'm open to hearing anything you have to say and haven't expressed an unwillingness to consider other views.

I've never tried psychedelics and probably never will because they're illegal where I live, to disclose my personal experience. There is extensive research to support what I've said on the topic, however.

I'm gonna leave the Brad stuff - I have nothing more to say on him.

But as regards drugs, I do not say that there is no use for psychedelics. I am aware that there is research that supports their use (and other drugs such as Ecstasy) in a medical or therapeutic context. I am saying that drugs are not part of the Buddhist path. In 25 years of practice I have never come across a teacher in any Buddhist tradition that encourages their use or is even neutral on the subject. We have a 5th precept all about not intoxicating the mind for good reason - our practice is to uncover our Buddha nature that is always present, not created through some special circumstance such as altered brain chemistry.

As far as I am aware there is no research (unless you can point me towards some) that proves (or even measures) that states of consciousness altered through psychedlics are the same as an enlightened states experienced in kensho or whatever.

If you believe that psychedelics are useful based on what you have read, you will also be aware that they can seriously mess with your brain chemistry and impair your mental health. I know two folks who continue to suffer mental health issues from taking acid in the 70s!

My brief experience with them convinced me that psychedelic experiences were an altered state of mind. My experience with meditation tells me that Buddhist practice is about precisely NOT engendering an altered state of mind. I don't dabble in drugs anymore because I want to preserve my mental health and any hard won stability of mind I've gained through meditation.

What tribal shamans do with peyote or whatever is their own thing. I see no reason to assume that it is the same as Buddhist practitioners attain through meditation is my only point. I don't see the need to conflate the two. And I definitely do not think that adding drugs to your spiritual regime will help your meditation practice.

[boda]

I'm open to hearing anything you have to say and haven't expressed an unwillingness to consider other views.

I've never tried psychedelics and probably never will because they're illegal where I live, to disclose my personal experience. There is extensive research to support what I've said on the topic, however.

I'm gonna leave the Brad stuff - I have nothing more to say on him.

But as regards drugs, I do not say that there is no use for psychedelics. I am aware that there is research that supports their use (and other drugs such as Ecstasy) in a medical or therapeutic context. I am saying that drugs are not part of the Buddhist path. In 25 years of practice I have never come across a teacher in any Buddhist tradition that encourages their use or is even neutral on the subject. We have a 5th precept all about not intoxicating the mind for good reason - our practice is to uncover our Buddha nature that is always present, not created through some special circumstance such as altered brain chemistry.

As far as I am aware there is no research (unless you can point me towards some) that proves (or even measures) that states of consciousness altered through psychedlics are the same as an enlightened states experienced in kensho or whatever.

If you believe that psychedelics are useful based on what you have read, you will also be aware that they can seriously mess with your brain chemistry and impair your mental health. I know two folks who continue to suffer mental health issues from taking acid in the 70s!

My brief experience with them convinced me that psychedelic experiences were an altered state of mind. My experience with meditation tells me that Buddhist practice is about precisely NOT engendering an altered state of mind. I don't dabble in drugs anymore because I want to preserve my mental health and any hard won stability of mind I've gained through meditation.

What tribal shamans do with peyote or whatever is their own thing. I see no reason to assume that it is the same as Buddhist practitioners attain through meditation is my only point. I don't see the need to conflate the two. And I definitely do not think that adding drugs to your spiritual regime will help your meditation practice.

So you concede that you were wrong in claiming that “drug experiences are not spiritual”?

[Knotty Veneer]

I don't know what shamans really do. So maybe is the best I can give you.

Is it spiritual in the same way as Buddhist meditation is? I dunno. But I'd be wary about comparing or mix 'n' matching the two. Also even if I were to concede that a hunter gatherer shaman path is a path to enlightenment, could the path be replicated by an urban Westerner? I doubt it.

[boda]

I don't know what shamans really do. So maybe is the best I can give you.

Is it spiritual in the same way as Buddhist meditation is? I dunno. But I'd be wary about comparing or mix 'n' matching the two. Also even if I were to concede that a hunter gatherer shaman path is a path to enlightenment, could the path be replicated by an urban Westerner? I doubt it.

By the same logic you should doubt that an ancient Eastern path could be replicated by an urban Westerner.

This is going nowhere. I’m out.