Interesting article on CBT

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Johnny Dangerous
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Interesting article on CBT

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:46 am

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... al-therapy

So, classical CBT is (from what i can see) already somewhat on the wane with "third wave" therapies like DBT and ACT starting to take center stage. I've always been distrustful of psychoanalysis, but I can see the point of their critique of CBT.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by jake » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:15 pm

Great article, thanks for sharing! I'm curious if how you see people approaching Buddhism as a kind of therapy. Is that problematic? I knew of a person that tried to reinterpret everything that was discussed in dharma talks into a kind of AA,CBT framework. I found it infinitely frustrating. :)

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by Simon E. » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:40 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:46 am
https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... al-therapy

So, classical CBT is (from what i can see) already somewhat on the wane with "third wave" therapies like DBT and ACT starting to take center stage. I've always been distrustful of psychoanalysis, but I can see the point of their critique of CBT.
I suspect that most forms of therapy are as good as the therapist wielding them Johnny.
I reckon a really gifted and insightful therapist could even get good results from applying Freud... :smile:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by Simon E. » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:22 pm

jake wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:15 pm
Great article, thanks for sharing! I'm curious if how you see people approaching Buddhism as a kind of therapy. Is that problematic? I knew of a person that tried to reinterpret everything that was discussed in dharma talks into a kind of AA,CBT framework. I found it infinitely frustrating. :)
Obviously I don’t know the individual involved, but I suspect that either Buddhadharma or CBT was new to them and they were using one to make sense of the other. I further suspect that eventually they would see the limitations involved in doing that.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:23 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:40 pm
I suspect that most forms of therapy are as good as the therapist wielding them Johnny.
I reckon a really gifted and insightful therapist could even get good results from applying Freud... :smile:
Yes, the therapist is always more important than the therapy really. At the same time though, to borrow the Buddhist way of analyzing such things, every school of Western Pysch has a "view" of the mind, individual agency etc. I think that view can come through in the interactions of the therapeutic worker in a way that affects things significantly.

As an example, a dyed in the wool CBT person might have a unrealistic view of changing someone's "self talk", simply prescribing disputation of negative thoughts, replacement with "positive self talk" etc. where they might have a more flexible view when informed by third-wave cognitive therapies.

To again make a Buddhist analogy, classical CBT essentially is a secular way of using antidotes, it is one way to work with negative thoughts, but taken in isolation it can be a lot of work, somewhat limiting, and almost completely ignores the truth of "what we resist persists".

On the other end, someone who is too narrowly Pyschodynamic might insist on seeing every negative emotion etc. as a pathology related to some past event , repression etc. and might be less likely to give practical strategies.
jake wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:15 pm
Great article, thanks for sharing! I'm curious if how you see people approaching Buddhism as a kind of therapy. Is that problematic? I knew of a person that tried to reinterpret everything that was discussed in dharma talks into a kind of AA,CBT framework. I found it infinitely frustrating. :)
It's funny, for my work I do addiction counseling, and I volunteer at a prison doing Prison Dharma...in both cases, people often initially see Dharma as another "therapy". In my work of course I cannot talk religion anyway, but I have been to Recovery Dharma meetings and I have had patients who go, and often they really skirt the line between therapy and spirituality, usually more in the arena of therapy.

At the prison 9 out of 10 people are more "What can Buddhism do for me" types than people who are initially interested in Buddhadharma as a more expansive path. It is just where things are in the culture, in my opinion. It is for a reason, and the fact that people are drawn to Buddhadharma in this way (focused on healing) is good, it's just a very narrow way to begin. Fear of suffering is one valid reason for taking refuge eventually, it's how I got started.

In a limited sense they are not wrong, the metaphors as The Buddha as doctor or healer exist for a reason. That said, the solely therapeutic stuff fits "inside" the much more expansive worldview and aim of Buddhadharma, and is a much "smaller" view. Finding a way to express that to interested people gradually, and without being preachy is a challenge. I would say this is a central challenge of Western Buddhism really, and one of the most important questions in propagation of the Dharma in the West...whether people like it or not, like I said, the culture is what it is.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by Caoimhghín » Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:45 am

I thought CBT was a very, very, very different thing before I read this thread.
歸命本覺心法身常住妙法心蓮臺本來莊嚴三身徳三十七尊住心
城遠離因果法然具普門塵數諸三昧無邊徳海本圓滿還我頂禮心諸佛

In reverence for the root gnosis of the heart, the dharmakāya,
for the ever present good law of the heart, the lotus terrace,
for the inborn adornment of the trikāya, the thirty-seven sages dwelling in the heart,
for that which is removed from seed and fruit, the upright key to the universal gate,
for all boundless concentrations, the sea of virtue, the root perfection,
I prostrate, bowing to the hearts of all Buddhas.

胎藏金剛菩提心義略問答鈔, Treatise on the teaching of the gnostic heart of the womb and the diamond, T2397.1.470c5-8

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:37 am

Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:45 am
I thought CBT was a very, very, very different thing before I read this thread.
Lol, I've had this come up in groups before when I used the term.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by futerko » Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:39 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:37 am
Caoimhghín wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:45 am
I thought CBT was a very, very, very different thing before I read this thread.
Lol, I've had this come up in groups before when I used the term.
:rolling:

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Re: Interesting article on CBT

Post by Toenail » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:06 pm

I don't think it is ethical to treat acute mental disorders with psychoanalysis. It is also not economical. It is difficult to obtain for normal people. With recommended treatment sessions of 300+ it is for the financially privileged while not even benefitting. It is ineffective and there is little empirical evidence compared with CBT. I get the whole 'we must treat the causes, not the symptoms' thing, but for that really, psychoanalysis is unfit. For this buddhism is the only way. As for psychological disorder symptoms, CBT can help with that. Not to forget, modern CBT places a huge focus on the 'C' and is the most open minded and least dogmatic of the schools. It will incorporate a lot of principles and techniques from other schools. Heroes like Klaus Grawe have positively influenced modern psychotherapy in a way that is focused on efficiency and empirical evidence rather than dogma and this is very good. CBT really works.

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