Victims of Communism

A place to post videos, pictures, and any other sort of Buddhist or non-Buddhist media.
User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 1507
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Nemo » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:46 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:22 pm
Watch the video - the victim calls (4:05) his nation Communist. I think he would know best.
DPRK, Democratic People's Republic of Korea.
Is this also a damming account of democracies and republics? You must get really confused when your local sports bar serves Buffalo Wings.

User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 1850
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by PeterC » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:12 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:22 pm
The Bukovsky archives will (or might, depending on the reader) cut thru a lot of pro-Commie fog:

https://bukovsky-archive.com
This is your proof? A man who, although a persuasive writer, thought that even talking to Gorbachev was wrong, believed that the white house had been corrupted by fifth columnists since WWII, and who also filed an amicus brief in support of Julian Assange? You need more robust sources for your ideas.

User avatar
Nicholas Weeks
Posts: 4124
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:21 am
Location: California

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:42 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:12 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:22 pm
The Bukovsky archives will (or might, depending on the reader) cut thru a lot of pro-Commie fog:

https://bukovsky-archive.com
This is your proof? A man who, although a persuasive writer, thought that even talking to Gorbachev was wrong, believed that the white house had been corrupted by fifth columnists since WWII, and who also filed an amicus brief in support of Julian Assange? You need more robust sources for your ideas.
Quote me some of the archival docs Bukovsky discovered that you think are not factual. You have read much of the link's contents, O fair-minded one?
May all seek, find or follow the Path of Buddhas.

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by tatpurusa » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:58 pm

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:33 pm
Hong Kong is not totally ruled by the Chinese Communist Party - yet. But Communist control is a situation to be avoided, as this speaker points out.
You clearly have no idea either about communism or the so-called communist countries. All you know is the anticommunist propaganda you have been fed all your life.
I know what communism is, and I have lived more than twenty years of my life in a communist country. I can tell you that these two (communism and the so-called communist or socialist countries) are by no means the same.
And both communism and life in a so-called communist country are radically different from what you ever could imagine with that level of indoctrination prevalent in your mind.

User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2100
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:30 pm

I mean, you guys are right those regimes were not really communist nor quite socialist. But! We do have to say that from the point of view of pragmatic linguistics Nicholas is right. Those countries did not and do not represent the values and are corrupt regimes, however it is not such a horrible crime to call them communist or socialist. Also those regimes killed milions. We have here a graveyard of small babies that died in prison where they were either born or taken with their mothers. That by itself is such a horrible crime that no apology can erase.

However, where is a thread on victims of the USA? Why not count the deaths caused by ICE? Why not count the countless deaths caused by keeping poor people poor and not giving them a chance for a healthy diet nor health insurance that would cover the costs? Why not count how many died because of the forever-war?

And what abotu capitalism? Since we do count everybody who died of hunger in communist China, why not count homeless people dying on the streets of capitalist countries? And many more.

While I am all for remembering victims of murderous regimes, I don't think that an American has more right to point at others and ignore his own problems than anybody else.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:39 pm

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:30 pm

While I am all for remembering victims of murderous regimes, I don't think that an American has more right to point at others and ignore his own problems than anybody else.
Of course not. After all, when we complain to China about their treatment of Tibetans and so on, they just point to our treatment of African slaves and Native peoples. After all, when we consider the slave trade over all, something like 2 million slaves died just being transported to the New World.

The official UN estimate is that 17 million people died in the slave trade. Given that the population of Africa seems to have declined slightly btween 1600 and 1800, while the population of Europe and Asia doubled in the same period, some people estimate that perhaps as many as 60 million Africans were killed in the slave trade during this period. Such was the fruit of capitalism until then.

User avatar
Könchok Thrinley
Former staff member
Posts: 2100
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:03 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:39 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:30 pm

While I am all for remembering victims of murderous regimes, I don't think that an American has more right to point at others and ignore his own problems than anybody else.
Of course not. After all, when we complain to China about their treatment of Tibetans and so on, they just point to our treatment of African slaves and Native peoples. After all, when we consider the slave trade over all, something like 2 million slaves died just being transported to the New World.

The official UN estimate is that 17 million people died in the slave trade. Given that the population of Africa seems to have declined slightly btween 1600 and 1800, while the population of Europe and Asia doubled in the same period, some people estimate that perhaps as many as 60 million Africans were killed in the slave trade during this period. Such was the fruit of capitalism until then.
:good:

Also let us not forget when the Brittish decided to get entire nation hooked on opium so they can get tea and silk for a better price. And the fact that Bolsonaro is on a good way to murder the rest of the native tribes in Amazon and destroy the forest with local and global ecosystem with them.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 1507
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Nemo » Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:13 am

The last 25 years of China's "economic miracle" has been the strongest period of economic growth in the history of capitalism. Does that mean communists are the best capitalists Nicholas?

User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 1850
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:15 am

Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:42 pm
PeterC wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:12 am
Nicholas Weeks wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:22 pm
The Bukovsky archives will (or might, depending on the reader) cut thru a lot of pro-Commie fog:

https://bukovsky-archive.com
This is your proof? A man who, although a persuasive writer, thought that even talking to Gorbachev was wrong, believed that the white house had been corrupted by fifth columnists since WWII, and who also filed an amicus brief in support of Julian Assange? You need more robust sources for your ideas.
Quote me some of the archival docs Bukovsky discovered that you think are not factual. You have read much of the link's contents, O fair-minded one?
And how do you, or should I, know that these documents are reliable?

What experience or expertise do you have on the countries you criticize apart from sources like this? Have you ever lived in them for any length of time?

User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 1850
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:22 am

Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:03 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:39 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:30 pm

While I am all for remembering victims of murderous regimes, I don't think that an American has more right to point at others and ignore his own problems than anybody else.
Of course not. After all, when we complain to China about their treatment of Tibetans and so on, they just point to our treatment of African slaves and Native peoples. After all, when we consider the slave trade over all, something like 2 million slaves died just being transported to the New World.

The official UN estimate is that 17 million people died in the slave trade. Given that the population of Africa seems to have declined slightly btween 1600 and 1800, while the population of Europe and Asia doubled in the same period, some people estimate that perhaps as many as 60 million Africans were killed in the slave trade during this period. Such was the fruit of capitalism until then.
:good:

Also let us not forget when the Brittish decided to get entire nation hooked on opium so they can get tea and silk for a better price. And the fact that Bolsonaro is on a good way to murder the rest of the native tribes in Amazon and destroy the forest with local and global ecosystem with them.
Indeed.

One cannot expect countries like China ever to take criticism from the US seriously when, in that bilateral relationship, the US has conducted an explicitly anti-China foreign policy for over half a century. What was spelt out in the Pentagon papers - the underlying goal of repressing China - remains very much a goal today.

Since this thread started on the issue of North Korea, whatever we think about the efficacy and morality of its government, the periods in modern history where the US made the most progress in its relationship with NK was when it stopped the grandstanding and engaged with it seriously in the six-party talks, first under Clinton and later under Obama.

User avatar
Nemo
Posts: 1507
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:23 am
Location: Canada

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Nemo » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:34 am

PeterC wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 1:22 am
Könchok Thrinley wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:03 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:39 pm


Of course not. After all, when we complain to China about their treatment of Tibetans and so on, they just point to our treatment of African slaves and Native peoples. After all, when we consider the slave trade over all, something like 2 million slaves died just being transported to the New World.

The official UN estimate is that 17 million people died in the slave trade. Given that the population of Africa seems to have declined slightly btween 1600 and 1800, while the population of Europe and Asia doubled in the same period, some people estimate that perhaps as many as 60 million Africans were killed in the slave trade during this period. Such was the fruit of capitalism until then.
:good:

Also let us not forget when the Brittish decided to get entire nation hooked on opium so they can get tea and silk for a better price. And the fact that Bolsonaro is on a good way to murder the rest of the native tribes in Amazon and destroy the forest with local and global ecosystem with them.
Indeed.

One cannot expect countries like China ever to take criticism from the US seriously when, in that bilateral relationship, the US has conducted an explicitly anti-China foreign policy for over half a century. What was spelt out in the Pentagon papers - the underlying goal of repressing China - remains very much a goal today.

Since this thread started on the issue of North Korea, whatever we think about the efficacy and morality of its government, the periods in modern history where the US made the most progress in its relationship with NK was when it stopped the grandstanding and engaged with it seriously in the six-party talks, first under Clinton and later under Obama.
Arguably the most successful talks in 50 years were between North and South when Trump was saber rattling and planning to attack the North. That was the point when Idiocracy became a documentary. Does he get credit for things he does accidentally? Faced with war the Korea's had no choice but to become amenable to diplomacy and work things out without America.

User avatar
PeterC
Posts: 1850
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by PeterC » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:44 am

Nemo wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:34 am

Arguably the most successful talks in 50 years were between North and South when Trump was saber rattling and planning to attack the North. That was the point when Idiocracy became a documentary. Does he get credit for things he does accidentally? Faced with war the Korea's had no choice but to become amenable to diplomacy and work things out without America.
That looked good for the headlines but not a lot of substance came out of it. If you ask SK now they'll say that it may have set things back, since it shored up Kim's position domestically (he still has a lot of enemies, despite blowing a few of them up). The risk to SK is not reduced in the slightest - of the six parties, SK is the least concerned about nuclear weapons, as that's not the functional threat to them - Seoul is within artillery range from the NK side of the border. A sensible person would argue that nuclear weaponry is not even the most important issue here, it's how to stabilize NK's domestic economy such that their government has more to lose from a hot war, thus reducing its likelihood. Again the Trump episode did nothing to advance that.

The point which made the most progress, and it didn't really look like it at the time, was when in the six-party talks the US stated publicly that they had no plan to attack NK and accepted its sovereignty de facto and de jure - and NK reciprocated by sharing their stage of development for a missile delivery system. Everyone walked away from the table for a while to calm down after that, but that put important facts out in the open that were then the basis for a subsequent agreement. Clinton was getting to the same point at the end of his administration and had a deal ready to go, which Bush Jr promptly binned on the advice of his war cabal. Had the Clinton deal been done, it would have slowed or halted development of a delivery system many years earlier.

It's normal to have different opinions on what the right course of action is with NK, the facts are often unclear, but generally I defer to the South Koreans on this, as they have the best understanding of the country and also have the most to lose: the US really doesn't have the right to try to impose any solution on them. They were happiest with the incremental progress being made under the six-party talks.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:00 am

Nemo wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:13 am
The last 25 years of China's "economic miracle" has been the strongest period of economic growth in the history of capitalism. Does that mean communists are the best capitalists Nicholas?
:applause:

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 20895
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:03 pm

Epoch Times , huh?

You cannot get more unbiased and factual than that!
In 2019, an investigative report by NBC News suggested that The Epoch Times's political coverage may be affected by Falun Gong believers' anticipation of a judgment day in which communists are sent to hell and Falun Gong's allies are spared. Former Epoch Times' employees told NBC News that President Donald Trump is viewed as a key anti-communist ally, allegedly "hastening judgement day and the delivery of communists to hell."
In recent years, the newspaper has also been noted for favorable coverage of the Trump administration, the German far right and the French far right.
In September 2017, The German edition of the newspaper, The Epoch Times Deutschland, which became Web-only in 2012, was accused by online magazine The China File of being aligned with the German far-right, and attractive to readers supportive of the Alternative for Germany (AfD) party and the anti-immigrant group Pegida. Stefanie Albrecht, a reporter for the German broadcaster RTL who spent several days inside the Berlin office of The Epoch Times while investigating the far right, said that The Epoch Times staffers she met had no journalistic training and didn't check facts, trusting instead in the alternative sources they consulted.
In France, The Epoch TImes gives "an unfettered platform to Jean-Marie Le Pen, the patriarch of the French far right, and his daughter, Marine, who leads the nationalist party her father founded," according to The New Republic.
Etc...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 2476
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Minobu » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:29 pm

There seems to be a problem with the concept of Marxism and to the extent the so called communist countries follow the manifesto to a tee.

None have so far.

The only place i've actually seen communism close to marxism is in the movie easy rider...

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 20895
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:44 pm

Minobu wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:29 pm
The only place i've actually seen communism close to marxism is in the movie easy rider...
marx.jpg
marx.jpg (77.67 KiB) Viewed 420 times
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Malcolm » Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:03 pm
In recent years, the newspaper has also been noted for favorable coverage of the Trump administration, the German far right and the French far right.
As I said elsewhere, American "conservatives" under Trump = National Front. AdF, etc.

Simon E.
Posts: 7454
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Simon E. » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:00 am
Nemo wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 12:13 am
The last 25 years of China's "economic miracle" has been the strongest period of economic growth in the history of capitalism. Does that mean communists are the best capitalists Nicholas?
:applause:
Quite clearly no purely capitalist system could have brought about the degree of general well being which has been the norm in the PRC for decades, with its enormous and diverse population.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

tatpurusa
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:17 am

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by tatpurusa » Sat Mar 21, 2020 10:24 pm

Nemo wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:34 am
Arguably the most successful talks in 50 years were between North and South when Trump was saber rattling and planning to attack the North. That was the point when Idiocracy became a documentary. Does he get credit for things he does accidentally? Faced with war the Korea's had no choice but to become amenable to diplomacy and work things out without America.
This is factually, not only arguably true.
This system was called during the time of "real existing socialism" (this is how "communist countries" referred to themselves) "state capitalism".
In Russia they still refer to it as "state capitalism".
If you think about it, it is not a bad term for it at all. Anyway, it is 1000s of times more efficient than "private capitalist" or pure "communist"/"socialist" economies. They are going to win the economic war in the long term, IMO.

User avatar
Dan74
Former staff member
Posts: 2938
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:59 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Victims of Communism

Post by Dan74 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 3:42 pm


Post Reply

Return to “Media”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests