Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

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Caoimhghín
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Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Is 妙法蓮華經玄義 translated into English?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
markatex
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by markatex »

For those of us who can't read Chinese, what's the English title?
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Caoimhghín »

妙法蓮華經玄義

Miào Fǎ Lián Huá Jīng Xuán Yì

Subtle Dharma Lotus Flower Sūtra's Profound(/Hidden) Meaning
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
crazy-man
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by crazy-man »

i found this

Chih-i (538-597) : the abstruse meaning of the Sūtra of the Lotus Flower of the fine dharma (Taishō vol.33, no.1716)
Author: Haiyan Shen Public defense : in 2004
Ph.D. dissertation submitted to the Faculty of Letters & Philosophy, Oriental Languages and Cultures
https://lib.ugent.be/catalog/rug01:002253063

A Hermeneutic Approach to the Lotus Sutra —On Tiantai Zhiyi’s Work, The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra
Author: Haiyan Shen
http://www.academia.edu/5542835/_%E7%B4 ... otus_Sutra

Chih-i's System of Sign Interpretation
Author: Haiyan Shen
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 1aTbIwdifQ
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Caoimhghín »

crazy-man wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:58 pm i found this

Chih-i (538-597) : the abstruse meaning of the Sūtra of the Lotus Flower of the fine dharma (Taishō vol.33, no.1716)
Author: Haiyan Shen Public defense : in 2004
Ph.D. dissertation submitted to the Faculty of Letters & Philosophy, Oriental Languages and Cultures
https://lib.ugent.be/catalog/rug01:002253063

A Hermeneutic Approach to the Lotus Sutra —On Tiantai Zhiyi’s Work, The Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra
Author: Haiyan Shen
http://www.academia.edu/5542835/_%E7%B4 ... otus_Sutra

Chih-i's System of Sign Interpretation
Author: Haiyan Shen
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 1aTbIwdifQ
Thank you! :namaste:
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
markatex
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by markatex »

Part of it is translated in Paul Swanson’s book T’ien ‘ai Philosophy.

Then there’s this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/81886294 ... ref=plSrch

But I’m not clear if this is an actual translation of the text or not.
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Caoimhghín »

markatex wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:41 pm Part of it is translated in Paul Swanson’s book T’ien ‘ai Philosophy.

Then there’s this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/81886294 ... ref=plSrch

But I’m not clear if this is an actual translation of the text or not.
It is marketed as a full translation, but there is a lot in the Chinese that I don't see in Swanson's rendering. For instance, an interesting section says something about the 十惱亂 (ten disruptors of the holy life), which have to do with the prohibitions against bodhisattva activity in Ch 14, but I can't find the section in Swanson.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
markatex
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by markatex »

I haven’t finished Swanson’s book, but the translation of Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra there isn’t complete, only what he considers the most important parts. I’d love to read the whole thing at some point. Interestingly, Swanson calls this Zhiyi’s magnum opus, not Maka Shikan.
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Queequeg »

Swanson only translates part of the Profound Meaning.

Shen provides a complete outline which is fairly detailed.

This is not Zhiyi's only commentary on the Lotus Sutra. There is also a line by line commentary on the sutra. It has not been translated into English except excerpts in embedded in other sources such as Nichiren's writings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by markatex »

Queequeg wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:57 pm
Shen provides a complete outline which is fairly detailed.
I keep reading “complete outline,” which seems to mean it’s not a translation of the actual text.
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Queequeg »

markatex wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:01 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:57 pm
Shen provides a complete outline which is fairly detailed.
I keep reading “complete outline,” which seems to mean it’s not a translation of the actual text.
Correct. It's a section by section outline/synopsis.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
markatex
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by markatex »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Dec 25, 2017 9:11 pm
markatex wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:01 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:57 pm
Shen provides a complete outline which is fairly detailed.
I keep reading “complete outline,” which seems to mean it’s not a translation of the actual text.
Correct. It's a section by section outline/synopsis.
I’m glad I got confirmation of that before I shelled out $70 for it. :jumping:
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Queequeg »

It's good for what it is. But yeah, if you're looking for a translation, you'll be disappointed. That said, it does have a lot of useful detail.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by FromTheEarth »

Ven. Zhiyi actually has written/taught two commentaries on the Lotus Sutra. One is the Profound Meaning, the other is Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra (法華文句 Fahua Wenzhu).
From my personal point of view, the Profound Meaning is more like a systematic attempt to re-interpret the totality of Buddha's teachings based on the Lotus Sutra. In other words, it is essentially doctrinal in many aspects, and you can see Ven. Zhiyi actively interacts with all the Buddhist schools that were present in his era (occasionally with Confucianism and Taoism as well). Also, technically, it is a piece of introducing the general idea of the sutra by way of interpreting the title of the sutra.
That being said, the Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra (法華文句 Fahua Wenzhu) is more like a commentary as we might normally conceive. There, Ven. Zhiyi explained the sutra word by word, sentence by sentence. For each paragraph (sometimes a sentence, some times a single word), he offers explanations in terms of four aspects: 因緣 (in what occasion/due to which conditions Buddha teaches the Dharma this way), 約教 (to which period of Buddha's teaching/kinds of Buddha's eight teachings this paragraph belongs), 本跡 (how this paragraph reveals about Buddha's authentic person, in contrast to his person presented to the world in the forms that may be suitable for the audience but not accurate of Buddha himself) and 觀心 (how we should use this paragraph to observe our minds/meditate). I would, risking distorting the original meaning of these four aspects, say that the four aspects are respectively contextual/historical, doctrinal, theological/soteriological and practical/spiritual. So this work is really encompassing and also significant for any learners of the Lotus Sutra. Unfortunately, given my limited knowledge, I could not find any English translation of this work.
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by stumpy »

For what its worth, BDK has Zhiyi's Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra on its "todo list", but not his Words and Phrases (Taishō No. 1718). Hopefully they'll either change their minds, or some scholar will do us the great service of translating the work.
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Queequeg »

Is anyone working on it?

The problem is finding scholars willing to do the translation.

I kind of would prefer the commentary first... but that's just the nerd in me. From a general audience view point, I understand the Profound Meaning is more interesting.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

Any news about the translations of Zhyi's commentaries on lotus Sutra ?

does anyone has it :
Chih-i (538-597) : the abstruse meaning of the Sūtra of the Lotus Flower of the fine dharma (Taishō vol.33, no.1716)
Author: Haiyan Shen Public defense : in 2004
Ph.D. dissertation submitted to the Faculty of Letters & Philosophy, Oriental Languages and Cultures
https://lib.ugent.be/catalog/rug01:002253063

in pdf or with another format ?
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Queequeg »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:54 pm Any news about the translations of Zhyi's commentaries on lotus Sutra ?

does anyone has it :
Chih-i (538-597) : the abstruse meaning of the Sūtra of the Lotus Flower of the fine dharma (Taishō vol.33, no.1716)
Author: Haiyan Shen Public defense : in 2004
Ph.D. dissertation submitted to the Faculty of Letters & Philosophy, Oriental Languages and Cultures
https://lib.ugent.be/catalog/rug01:002253063

in pdf or with another format ?
Have not heard anything. I haven't even heard any names connected with the translation. Swanson, I understand, is retired, so we can rule out the possibility that he will complete his partial translation.

I have Haiyan Shen's two volume text on the Fahuaxuani, a revised version of her dissertation. I've seen it on the internet as a pdf that Shen had published herself, but have not seen it in a while.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I keep reading “complete outline,” which seems to mean it’s not a translation of the actual text.
"Complete outline"? :lol: That's almost as good an oxymoron as the "lay monk" mail-order ordination-mill licenses they are scamming on the internet in Japan these days.

Lot of tasty links and info in this thread. Many thanks to all concerned.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Ven Zhiyi Lotus Sūtra Commentary translation?

Post by Queequeg »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 3:48 pm
I keep reading “complete outline,” which seems to mean it’s not a translation of the actual text.
"Complete outline"? :lol: That's almost as good an oxymoron as the "lay monk" mail-order ordination-mill licenses they are scamming on the internet in Japan these days.

Lot of tasty links and info in this thread. Many thanks to all concerned.
Haha! :)

Complete outline... I guess what I meant was that it is more than just a bullet point outline, but rather a section by section synopsis.

I've compared it to sections translated by Swanson and it lines up pretty well. Its enough to get the gist of the text.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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