No problem at all Queequeg, I hope the notes are of some help. I too am excited about being able to discuss all of this with everyone. You never know what ideas and angles might come out of it all.
Gassho
Jikai
No problem at all Queequeg, I hope the notes are of some help. I too am excited about being able to discuss all of this with everyone. You never know what ideas and angles might come out of it all.
Good question Rory. I will be discussing this passage in some depth very soon, so I hope you'll forgive me for treating it summarily here. I promise though, that I will discuss it at length in the notes as we go. In very brief terms then: As you mention, some later Tendai thinkers would go as far as suggesting that passages such as this one imply a total identification between Dharma-Nature (法性) and ignorance etc. When you read Zhiyi extensively though, I think we can say that Zhiyi leaves the door open somewhat, most likely intentionally. However, it is generally fairly clear that Zhiyi is careful not to go quite so far as to claim complete and perfect identification as such. Zhiyi says for example that they are neither one nor different(不一不異). They share the same "thusness" but that does not mean that passionate afflictions are prajna for example.rory wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:00 pm Okay I've picked up my volume: Rev. Jikai could you please discuss the modern Tendai view of this passage: p. 103
This is a very famous quote, certainly used later in hongaku to justify that we are enlightened just as we are; but of course that doesn't mean we don't have to practice...What does it mean to hear the perfect Dharma? To hear that samsara is indivisible from the Dharma body. that passionate afflictions are indivisible from prajna-wisdom, that the bonds of karma are indivisible from liberation.
My other question: would you discuss the Lotus zammai - the practice as it is done today in Tendai?
It was wonderful reading the quote on p. 77 " if you do not climb a high mountain you will not comprehend the highness of heavens" ; I hope I am like those indigo leaves.
gassho
Rory
And let me again thank you Rev. Jikai for your kindness and compassion in holding this study group with us!
Glad to have you with us
None of the four canonical commentaries make adirect correlation with those passages. Although as we discussed, they do point out that this Dharma Gate of Practice is a reference to the Perfect Teachings in particular (圓教.Queequeg wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:25 pm "This Zhiguan is the Dharma Gate of Practice which Tiantai Zhizhe practiced in his own mind."
This statement in the Introduction reminded me of these quotes from the Lotus Sutra, referring to the Buddha's own bodhisattva practices.
我於無量百千萬億阿僧祇劫修習是難得阿耨多羅三 画像藐三菩提法
"For immeasurable hundreds of thousands of myriads of koṭis of incalculable kalpas, I practiced this Dharma of highest, complete enlightenment, which is hard to attain."
From Chapter 22
名妙法蓮華教菩薩法佛所護念
"This Mahayana sutra called the Lotus Sutra, the instruction for bodhisattvas and treasured lore of the buddhas."
A standard phrase that appears throughout the first half of the text.
I was wondering if there is any commentary relating this statement from the Introduction to these phrases from the LS?
I don't see anything on first glance objectionable in your thinking here, except I might very cautiously ask what exactly you mean by "surpass the teachings"? If you simply me that by putting them into practice, the teachings are more truly themselves, than if they were limited to the words on the page, then yes. I provided Zhanran's complete comment on this section, as it is quite brief. He doesn't draw out things here.Queequeg wrote: ↑Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:06 pm Presently re-reading the intro to Swanson's translation by Donner and Stevenson.
Relevant to the present discussion of Guanding's introduction and recitation of lineage, Donner & Stevenson discuss how the Western tradition (Indian lineage) represents the doctrinal tradition while the Chinese sages represent the wisdom gained through practice. I thought this passage they quoted from the MHCK is something that might be helpful to keep in mind -
***Understanding [that is, learning] purifies practice, and practice promotes understanding. Illuminating and enriching, guiding and penetrating, they reciprocally beautify and embellish one another. They are like the two hands of a single body, which, working together, keep it clean. [Yet this synthesis of learning and practice] is not just a matter of clearing away impediments and overcoming obstacles in order to inwardly advance one's own enlightenment. One must also achieve a thorough comprehension of the sutras and treatises so that one can outwardly reveal to others what they have not heard before. When one combines one's own training with the training of others, benefit is then complete. If on such as this is not the teacher of all humankind and the jewel of the nation, then who is?Growing up, I was exposed to the, "blue dye" teaching. Nichiren's interpretation of this passage conforms to the implication of the Xunxi, ie. "Blue dye derives from the indigo plant, and yet is bluer than the plant. Ice comes from water and yet it is colder than water... "The quote attributed to Zhiyi (T'ien-t'ai) seems to be an interpretive translation conveying the Xunxi. We can also set aside Nichiren relating the Lotus Sutra to the indigo plant. Notwithstanding, Nichiren's interpretation seems to conform with the Xunxi and Guanding. I think its relevant to note Guanding's remark in Fahuaxuanyi, praising Zhiyi, “Even the great scholars of India were not in a class with him, and the Chinese teachers—well, one need hardly mention them. This is no idle boast—the doctrine he taught was indeed of such excellence.” (I don't have Swanson's translation with me, so I am quoting a translation of this passage as it is found in a translation of Nichiren's Kanjin no Honzon sho.T’ien-t’ai states, “From the indigo, an even deeper blue.” This passage means that, if one dyes something repeatedly in indigo, it becomes even bluer than the indigo leaves. The Lotus Sutra is like the indigo, and the strength of one’s practice is like the deepening blue.
Zhiyi remarked in MHCK - "Vasubandhu and Nāgārjuna internally had insight and were enlightened, and externally each responded appropriately to the needs of their times on the basis of tentative means. However, some [Buddhist] teachers have a one-sided understanding, and some scholars are carelessly attached [to their own limited interpretation], so that they [argue and fight uselessly,] like shooting arrows at a rock. They each maintain one extreme, and thus pervert the noble path." (I don't have the text in front of me and am quoting from one of Swanson's drafts of the section, "Objects as Inconceivable" From the Perspective of Contemplating the Middle: Beyond all Dualities (Including "Non-duality")"
So before people get excited, my understanding of these passages is not that Zhiyi was considered categorically superior to everyone who had appeared since the Buddha's parinirvana, but that the insight he had and his spontaneous exposition on the Dharma surpassed any of his contemporaries in China or India.
All this is to make the point, my understanding of the reference to the indigo dye is that by immersing ourselves in the teachings, we surpass the teachings. I'm not sure that this should be considered particularly controversial - the real proving ground of dharma is not found in textual analysis or even its exposition, but in the sublime realization and the profound relations with others as a conduit of the buddha wisdom. In other words, there is a reality beyond the particular textual teachings that is greater than its means of conveyance. I think this comes into focus when the rest of the MHCK, particularly the Sudden & Perfect, is taken into account. Zhiyi himself refers to the actual teachings as "Inconceivable".
It would be interesting to see the rest of the context of Zhanran's comments on this subject. FWIW, I don't think Nichiren was introducing a novel view, and suspect it was at least a minority interpretation within the Tendai in the 13th c.?
I visited about 15 years ago. As I was walking around the terrace of the stupa (not circumambulating per se, just being a tourist), I was surprised to find a poster explaining the ten worlds. I thought this remarkable as I don't think that ten world formulation is significant outside the Lotus schools... Unable to speak and very limited in reading kanji at the time, I couldn't really gather what type of teachings were prevalent at the complex.
Is there any indication that this was practiced outside of monastic/ordained circles in the medieval period? The reason I ask is because there is a letter by Nichiren in which he instructs a daily practice that, though paired down, very closely follows the structure of the Lotus Repentance ritual. It seems to me that even among laity in the medieval period, their knowledge of teachings was considerably more robust and their practices considerably more developed than the sort we associate with laity in Japan now. Sorry this is a little off topic, but seems a little too minor to break off into a separate thread. If it picks up, maybe we can take it up in the Practice for Who? thread that is currently active in the sub.
There is still a Tiantai presence there. Ara Sensei used to visit them quite a lot as he painted many of their statues and icons for an exhibition at one point. Since the Qing period though, many of the temples have been converted for use by Tibetan Schools (The Manchu considered themselves ethnic kin of the Tibetans and Mongolians, so Tibetan Buddhism was in vogue to some extent).Queequeg wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:53 pmI visited about 15 years ago. As I was walking around the terrace of the stupa (not circumambulating per se, just being a tourist), I was surprised to find a poster explaining the ten worlds. I thought this remarkable as I don't think that ten world formulation is significant outside the Lotus schools... Unable to speak and very limited in reading kanji at the time, I couldn't really gather what type of teachings were prevalent at the complex.
Do you know if Tiantai teachings are still continued there?
Certainly there were aristocrats who participated in the Lotus Repentance Rite. Whether or not they led their own practice of it, or had a Monk lead for them, might be the question. I couldn't say for sure, but I'll look into it. Tentatively though, I would think it fairly likely that they did indeed do what might have been an abridged Hokke Senbo practice. There are a lot of accounts of people performing 'repentance rites' as such, and this was perhaps premier among such rights in the late Heian.Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:05 amIs there any indication that this was practiced outside of monastic/ordained circles in the medieval period? The reason I ask is because there is a letter by Nichiren in which he instructs a daily practice that, though paired down, very closely follows the structure of the Lotus Repentance ritual. It seems to me that even among laity in the medieval period, their knowledge of teachings was considerably more robust and their practices considerably more developed than the sort we associate with laity in Japan now. Sorry this is a little off topic, but seems a little too minor to break off into a separate thread. If it picks up, maybe we can take it up in the Practice for Who? thread that is currently active in the sub.
According to Chinese Wiki in 1956 there were 99 Chinese temples and 24 Tibetan Temples on Mt Wutai.jikai wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:12 amThere is still a Tiantai presence there. Ara Sensei used to visit them quite a lot as he painted many of their statues and icons for an exhibition at one point. Since the Qing period though, many of the temples have been converted for use by Tibetan Schools (The Manchu considered themselves ethnic kin of the Tibetans and Mongolians, so Tibetan Buddhism was in vogue to some extent).Queequeg wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:53 pmI visited about 15 years ago. As I was walking around the terrace of the stupa (not circumambulating per se, just being a tourist), I was surprised to find a poster explaining the ten worlds. I thought this remarkable as I don't think that ten world formulation is significant outside the Lotus schools... Unable to speak and very limited in reading kanji at the time, I couldn't really gather what type of teachings were prevalent at the complex.
Do you know if Tiantai teachings are still continued there?
I'm reading too, I'm plowing ahead! So forgive my silence while I work on this!Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 pm Rev. Jikai,
First, I want to congratulate you and thank you for the latest study guide - you address some really big subjects. It was a good, challenging read. It definitely stimulated the mind and I'm going to let it percolate for a little. Impressive that you we able to put that together with all your other responsibilities and obligations. Its going to be something when we get into the text!
I hope that others following along are not daunted, and I would say to them, this was a tough read even for someone familiar with the underlying subjects, covering a lot of ground.
You're most welcome, I hope it is helpful. I dare say my lack of erudition made it a more difficult read than it need be, and for that I apologise. Nevertheless, I hope even now in these early stages that it is clear why the Mohe Zhiguan was chosen as the 'textbook' for Tiantai/Tendai Monks over the centuries.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 pm Rev. Jikai,
First, I want to congratulate you and thank you for the latest study guide - you address some really big subjects. It was a good, challenging read. It definitely stimulated the mind and I'm going to let it percolate for a little. Impressive that you we able to put that together with all your other responsibilities and obligations. Its going to be something when we get into the text!
I hope that others following along are not daunted, and I would say to them, this was a tough read even for someone familiar with the underlying subjects, covering a lot of ground.
It is a great companion. Hopefully it sets a new standard for major translation works from now on! Don't hold your breath thoughQueequeg wrote: ↑Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:32 pm For the first time I browsed the appendix volume of Swanson's MHCK. Wow. That volume itself is amazing.
Reading Swanson's intro. Its really nice to read how meaningful this was for him. I can only hope to have a life work that is so meaningful personally and significant for others. It's fair to say the MHCK is his practice for self and practice for others.
Let me know if you guys have any ideas for how to make future materials better, or easier to work with.rory wrote: ↑Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:27 amI'm reading too, I'm plowing ahead! So forgive my silence while I work on this!Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 pm Rev. Jikai,
First, I want to congratulate you and thank you for the latest study guide - you address some really big subjects. It was a good, challenging read. It definitely stimulated the mind and I'm going to let it percolate for a little. Impressive that you we able to put that together with all your other responsibilities and obligations. Its going to be something when we get into the text!
I hope that others following along are not daunted, and I would say to them, this was a tough read even for someone familiar with the underlying subjects, covering a lot of ground.
gassho
Rory
Don't count yourself out too early. We all start at different levels, but its the challenge that lets you know you're learning something important. The next set of notes shouldn't be too difficult. Although the ones after that...I can't make any problems.