Tantric Art and Meditation

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Queequeg
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Tantric Art and Meditation

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 10, 2018 1:54 am

Not sure if anyone can answer...

When do the rituals described in Michael Saso's Tantric Art and Meditation date from?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

jake
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Re: Tantric Art and Meditation

Post by jake » Thu May 10, 2018 4:56 am

Just to clarify, you're asking about the Juhachido, Taizokai, Kongokai, and Goma? I think he uses an English translation for the names, if memory serves.

Also, as I'm sure you're aware, these rituals are also in Shingon but I assume you're interested in the Tendai rituals in their current format, as outlined in Saso's book. Right? Or are you asking for the historical origins?
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Seishin
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Re: Tantric Art and Meditation

Post by Seishin » Thu May 10, 2018 10:35 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 1:54 am
Not sure if anyone can answer...

When do the rituals described in Michael Saso's Tantric Art and Meditation date from?
To be honest, I don't really know. From what little I know these rituals originate in India, and then moved to China. I'd imagine there were some minor additions made to these rituals in China, but I can't be sure. Then they moved to Japan where again I'd imagine some minor additions were made, but again I can't really be sure.

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Queequeg
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Re: Tantric Art and Meditation

Post by Queequeg » Thu May 10, 2018 3:46 pm

jake wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 4:56 am
Just to clarify, you're asking about the Juhachido, Taizokai, Kongokai, and Goma? I think he uses an English translation for the names, if memory serves.

Also, as I'm sure you're aware, these rituals are also in Shingon but I assume you're interested in the Tendai rituals in their current format, as outlined in Saso's book. Right? Or are you asking for the historical origins?
Hi Jake,

I'm particularly curious about the Taizokai and Kongokai, but curious about all. And not necessarily just the Tendai traditions.

I guess my question is more specifically, what is the history of those rituals in Japan, and how do they compare to the practices brought from China in the 9th-10th c. Are these substantially similar to the practices in the Heian and Kamakura periods such that insight could be gleaned about the general Buddhist history of those periods? Is there substantial variation in these practices between particular lineages and schools?
Seishin wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 10:35 am
To be honest, I don't really know. From what little I know these rituals originate in India, and then moved to China. I'd imagine there were some minor additions made to these rituals in China, but I can't be sure. Then they moved to Japan where again I'd imagine some minor additions were made, but again I can't really be sure.
Hi Seishin, Do you know if there have been any studies, English or Japanese, investigating the line of questions above? I imagine that part of the difficulty in answering those questions, and the ones you raise, is the secrecy that has traditionally surrounded the practices. There must be ritual manuals, though, that can be dated and compared...
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Seishin
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Re: Tantric Art and Meditation

Post by Seishin » Thu May 10, 2018 4:16 pm

I'm sure there must have been such studies done in Japan, given their penchant for scholarship. However I don't know of them. Jikai sensei may be a better person to answer.

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Re: Tantric Art and Meditation

Post by aaron_proffitt » Thu Aug 02, 2018 9:52 pm

In some sense, the ritual structure, a kind of "guest/host" enactment, goes back to ancient India and is fairly common in South and East Asian religious traditions. You'd have to look into the specific ritual lineage that he trained in for more detailed information- could be Heian, could be Edo.... In general, there are a number of very ancient texts that people like Kukai, Ennin, etc. brought back that have been used as the "template" for certain esoteric ritual training regimes.

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