Letting go

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KeithA
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Re: Letting go

Post by KeithA » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:19 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:32 pm
KeithA wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:16 pm
Astus wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:13 pm


Check out this Pali term: vossagga.
Thanks for that. “Letting go” is hardly a self help term, as far as Zen practice goes.

Just ask the man on top of the 100 foot pole (case 46, Mumonkan)

_/|\_
I love the way that You Zen guys drop an expression or quote as though it is self explanatory.. :smile: Which it probably is if you are immersed in Zen stuff for a time. But for poor saps like me the idea of asking the guy at the top of a hundred foot pole sheds very little light on the issue.
But then again I dropped into Zen forum of my own choice, and Vajrayanists have their own shibboleths.
:rolling:

Guess the question was answered then. There is a reference included should someone care to look it up. It’s a well known story and the very essence of “letting go”.

Simon E.
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Re: Letting go

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:43 pm

Thank you Keith..
“ When the demon is at your door, in the morning it won’t be there no more
Any major dude will tell you”.

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Astus
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Re: Letting go

Post by Astus » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:31 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:32 pm
the idea of asking the guy at the top of a hundred foot pole sheds very little light on the issue.
An excerpt from Guo Gu's commentary on that koan:

'Practice is necessary and must be genuine. In this process, delusion must be relinquished. This means that when you get to the top of the pole, you have to jump off. When this is done, you become perfectly normal and ordinary. You realize that all along you’ve been a human. To be fully human is to be a buddha —someone who is selfless. Is this the end? No. It is the beginning of the fulfillment of wisdom and of compassion.
Chan or Zen teachers are not advocating that people commit suicide by jumping off the top of the pole. It is only a metaphor, but it points to the mind-set of one who is able to do this. Without this mind-set, this commitment to the path, you will just be a pole dancer. You may be able to do all kinds of fancy moves on the pole, going up and down, down and up, but none of that is awakening. That is essentially what some practitioners are doing. You must have the courage to relinquish what you cherish the most: the “I.”
...
“At the top of the hundred-foot pole you must step forward” means putting down all the games and tricks you can do on the pole. In terms of meditation practice, it means reaching a point where there is no longer past or future, only the present, only concentrating on the method, becoming one with the method. At this stage you have forgotten about yourself. Duality is transcended. Is that enough? No. Many practitioners, teachers included, make a big deal about nonduality. People in sports have this experience where, say, they are one with the basketball or one with the act of running. Accomplishing that is not so hard. Don’t stop there. You have to take one more step forward. Put down the oneness.
Don’t be a pole dancer! Get up that pole and take one more step. Whatever you cannot let go of is your obstruction. Whenever you cannot let go of something, it means a self-attachment is there. Even if you let go of everything— let go of that, too! If you do this, you will be able to “expose the full body of reality throughout the worlds in the ten directions,” which means that just as you are—as a human, through and through—is reality! Selfless, free: this is to manifest wisdom and compassion fully. You’ve come full circle. You discover that you didn’t die after taking that forward step. On the contrary, the whole world has come alive, and you have truly come alive, for the first time, as a human.'
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Simon E.
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Re: Letting go

Post by Simon E. » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:34 pm

Food for thought. Thank you Astus.
“ When the demon is at your door, in the morning it won’t be there no more
Any major dude will tell you”.

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LastLegend
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Re: Letting go

Post by LastLegend » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:24 pm

People can have samadhi at consciousness clarity but that’s not it. The whole shurangama Sutra talks about consciousness clarity. This state needs to be transcends as well.

After people fell from the pole (an expression), siddhi will start active.
Clear!

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LastLegend
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Re: Letting go

Post by LastLegend » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:19 pm

After people falling from the pole, there are no traces of self left. During any interaction with such person, anything arises in our mind also arises in their due to no self. But they know what to do with whatever comes to their. Diamond Sutra says something about liberating all beings but with no sentient beings to liberated. Master Thích Thanh Từ referenced Diamond Sutra and talked about sending all beings to the place is non-birth and non-death. Hue Neng also said that. But prior to Hue Neng, there isn’t much of that emphasized. That’s where one begins the work of Bodhisattva.

Something similar in Tibetan tradition, guru yoga or alike. One would benefit greatly from a realized teacher (one fell from the pole).
Clear!

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LastLegend
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Re: Letting go

Post by LastLegend » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:34 pm

So that’s one of siddhi!
Clear!

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Letting go

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 pm

My issue with "letting go" is that it can easily turn to "hiding from" or some way of actively ridding oneself of something, which I imagine is just as much an issue/problem/obstruction in Zen as in Tibetan traditions. There really is nothing to pick up or drop, rather, actually "letting go" is going beyond picking and dropping altogether.

So, I feel like "letting go" has mostly to do with seeing clearly the the fruitlessness of accepting and rejecting things in the first place. This of course is a question of the definitive or absolute meaning..relatively we have to accept and reject things and continue on.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Dan74
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Re: Letting go

Post by Dan74 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:24 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 pm
My issue with "letting go" is that it can easily turn to "hiding from" or some way of actively ridding oneself of something, which I imagine is just as much an issue/problem/obstruction in Zen as in Tibetan traditions. There really is nothing to pick up or drop, rather, actually "letting go" is going beyond picking and dropping altogether.

So, I feel like "letting go" has mostly to do with seeing clearly the the fruitlessness of accepting and rejecting things in the first place. This of course is a question of the definitive or absolute meaning..relatively we have to accept and reject things and continue on.
Right. The letting go is of the clutching. Clutching at the notions of 'me' and 'mine' and all that that entails, which is a lot. Letting go of the whole kit and caboodle.

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LastLegend
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Re: Letting go

Post by LastLegend » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:21 am

This is why seekers of the Truth fail to realize Supreme Enlightenment but achieve only (the states of) ̃r‡vakas, pratyeka-buddhas, heretics, devas and demons, solely be- cause they do not know the two basic inversions, thereby practising wrongly like those who cannot get food by cooking sand in spite of the passing of aeons as countless as the dust. What are these two basic inversions? ‚nanda, the first is the basic root of birth and death caused, since the time without beginning, by the wrong use of a clinging mind which people mistake for their own nature, and the second is their attach- ment to causal conditions (which screen) the basically bright essence of consciousness which is the fundamentally pure and clean substance of Nirvanic Enlightenment. Thus they ignore this basic brightness and so transmigrate through (illu- sory) realms of existence without realizing the futility of their (wrong) practice.10


From His lion seat the Buddha in order to teach ‚nanda and the assembly so that they could all achieve the Patient Endurance of the Uncreate (Anutpattika-dharma- k ̆‡nti), held out His hand to touch ‚nandaís head, saying: ëThe Tath‡gata has always said that all phenomena are mani- festations of mind and that all causes and effects including (all things from) the world to its dust, take shape (solely) be- cause of the mind. ‚nanda, if we look at all the worlds and all existing (things) including even grass and leaves, and in- vestigate their roots, they are all made of matter and have qualities, and even the empty void has its name and appear- ance; then how can the pure and clean profound Bright Mind which is the (underlying) nature of every (discriminating) mind be without its own substance? If you grasp firmly the knowledge which comes from your discrimination between feeling and seeing as your true mind, it should have its own nature independent of all (sense data such as) form, smell, taste and touch. As you now listen to my sermon on the Dharma, you differentiate because you hear my voice.í
The seventh consciousness is unreal
ëEven if you (succeed in) putting an end to all seeing, hear- ing, feeling and knowing, and so preserve inner quiet, the shadow of (your) differentiation of things (dharm‡) still re-
43
mains. I do not want you to hold that this is not mind, but you should examine it carefully and minutely: that which contin- ues to possess discerning nature even in the absence of sense data is really your mind; (on the other hand) if this discerning nature ceases with sense data, this is merely the shadow of (your) differentiation of them, for they are not permanent and when they cease to exist, so does this (so-called) mind, like the hair of a tortoise and the horns of a hare. If your Dharmak‡ya can so easily cease to be, who will then practise and realize the patient endurance of the Uncreate?í
After hearing this, ‚nanda and all those present were completely bewildered.

The Buddha asked: ëIs there any difference between the darkness seen by a blind man in front of him and that seen by a man who is not blind when he is in a dark room?í
(‚nanda replied): ëWorld Honoured One, there is no difference.í
47
The Buddha said: ë‚nanda, when a blind man who used to see only darkness suddenly recovers his sight and sees every thing clearly, if you say that it is his eyes which see, then when a man who saw darkness in a dark room suddenly lights a lamp which enables him to see what is there, you should say that it is the lamp that sees. If a lamp can see things, it should have (the faculty of) seeing and should not be called a lamp; if it really sees, it has no rela- tion to you. Therefore, you should know that while the lamp can reveal form, seeing comes from the eyes but not from the lamp. Likewise, while your eyes can reveal form, the nature of seeing comes from the mind but not from the eyes.

‚j§‡ta-kauıÛinya then rose from his seat and replied
to the Buddha: ëI am now a senior in the assembly in which
I am the only one who has acquired the art of interpreting be-
cause I had awakened to (the meaning of) the expression “foreign dust,” so that I won the (holy) fruit. World Honoured
One (foreign dust) is like a guest who stops at an inn where
he passes the night or eats something and then packs and
continues his journey because he cannot stay longer. As to
the host of the inn, he has nowhere to go. My deduction is
that one who does not stay is a guest and one who stays is a
host. Consequently, a thing is ìforeignü when it does not
stay. Again, when the sun rises in a clear sky and its light
enters (the house) through an opening, the dust is seen to
18. ‚nanda used to lean on the false mind for support. The Buddha, after showing the falseness of the first two aggregates, rÂpa and vedan‡, taught him to return the seeing to the mind. The disciple was thrown off balance and, not knowing what to say, was speechless. He was still uncertain and awaited His further preaching.
49
dance in the ray of light whereas the empty space does not move. I deduce that that which is still is the void and that which moves is the dust. Consequently, a thing is ìdustü when it moves.í
The Buddha said: Correct.

The Buddha then bent, straightened and rebent his fingers and asked ‚nanda: ëWhat did you see?í ‚nanda replied: ëI saw the Buddha open and close His fist.í The Buddha asked: ëYou say that you saw my fist open and close; was it my fist or your seeing that opened and closed?í ‚nanda replied: ëAs the Buddhaís fist opened and closed, I saw that it and not the nature of my seeing did so by itself.í The Buddha asked: ëWhich one moved and which was still?í ‚nanda replied: ëThe Buddhaís hand was not still; as to the nature of my see- ing which was already beyond the state of stillness, it could not move.í
The Buddha said ëCorrect.í
Thereupon the Buddha sent out from His palm a radiant ray of light to ‚nandaís right, and the disciple turned to look at it. Then He sent out another ray to ‚nan- daís left and the disciple turned to look at it. The Buddha then asked: ëWhy did your head move?í ‚nanda replied: ëI saw the Buddha send out radiant rays of light to my right and left, I turned to look at them and so my head moved.í (The Buddhaí said:) ëAs you turn to the right and left to see the Buddha-light, is it your head or your seeing that
50
moves?’ (Ananda replied:) ëWorld Honoured One, it is my head that turns; as to my seeing which is already beyond (the state of) stillness, how can it move?í
The Buddha said: ëCorrect.í19
The Buddha then declared to the assembly: ëSo every
worldly man knows that what moves is dust. and that he who
does not stay is a guest. You have seen ‚nanda whose head
moved of itself whereas his seeing was unmoved. You have
also seen my fist which opened and closed of itself whereas
his seeing neither expanded nor contracted. Why do you still
regard the moving as your body and surroundings, and so,
from beginning to end, allow your thoughts to rise and fall
without interruption, thereby losing (sight of) your true
nature and indulging in backward actions? By missing the
(True) Mind of your nature and by mistaking (illusory) ob-
jects for your Selves, you allow yourselves to be caught in the
wheel (of samaras) thereby forcing yourselves to pass
through transmigrations.


http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/surangama.pdf
Clear!

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Re: Letting go

Post by tkp67 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:30 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 pm
My issue with "letting go" is that it can easily turn to "hiding from" or some way of actively ridding oneself of something, which I imagine is just as much an issue/problem/obstruction in Zen as in Tibetan traditions. There really is nothing to pick up or drop, rather, actually "letting go" is going beyond picking and dropping altogether.

So, I feel like "letting go" has mostly to do with seeing clearly the the fruitlessness of accepting and rejecting things in the first place. This of course is a question of the definitive or absolute meaning..relatively we have to accept and reject things and continue on.
From a therapeutic perspective letting go is reactive and relative to a difficult issue It doesn't address the root of cause which is unhealthy/unreasonable expectation and attachments.

Zen meditation helps me address the rising mind both in releasing unhealthy attachments whether they where a source of pain or not but also in recognizing rise of the mind that seeks to forge new unhealthy attachment in new situations.

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LastLegend
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Re: Letting go

Post by LastLegend » Wed Oct 02, 2019 1:33 am

Not expert in Sutra but sounds familiar! I was told this Sutra talks about consciousness clarity!
Clear!

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bokki
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Re: Letting go

Post by bokki » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:35 pm

If the whole universe is on fire, the samadhi through which I escape being burned is the samadhi of coolness; coolness of detachment and emptiness. Detachment from the fiery universe of greed and desire by entry into the emptiness beneath it, where "all five skandhas are empty." Don't we struggle toward this every time we sit?

-----------

no, that is ...no
try again

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bokki
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Re: Letting go

Post by bokki » Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:42 pm

Just ask the man on top of the 100 foot pole
you will not let them go easy, will you now, keith?

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bokki
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Re: Letting go

Post by bokki » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:01 pm

Right. The letting go is of the clutching. Clutching at the notions of 'me' and 'mine' and all that that entails, which is a lot. Letting go of the whole kit and caboodle.
ok, i get it..but...how about..?
not letting go..?
holidng tight..?
hold it tight, dont let it go..?
remeber?

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Dan74
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Re: Letting go

Post by Dan74 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:48 pm

bokki wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:01 pm
Right. The letting go is of the clutching. Clutching at the notions of 'me' and 'mine' and all that that entails, which is a lot. Letting go of the whole kit and caboodle.
ok, i get it..but...how about..?
not letting go..?
holidng tight..?
hold it tight, dont let it go..?
remeber?
c51b096a08f04c80b3b11ac20cfc391b.jpg
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Sādhaka
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Re: Letting go

Post by Sādhaka » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:51 pm

The Bodhicittasopashika & The bsgrags pa skor gsum

/forum

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JMGinPDX
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Re: Letting go

Post by JMGinPDX » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:29 pm

I don't see the phrase "letting go" as a trite, dismissive phrase when applied to the practice, even if it's overused in Western pop mindfulness culture.
Here's a perspective that ties the term directly to Dogen and how zazen itself is different from "meditation" primarily through the act of letting go...

https://zenstudiespodcast.com/letting-g ... o-samadhi/

(disclaimer: Domyo is my teacher here in my local sangha)

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Re: Letting go

Post by cjdevries » Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:18 pm

I was just reading about this "letting go" exercise last night. Based on a teaching by Tulku Thondup: when any unwanted feeling comes up, the first step is to feel it as fully as you can at the present moment. In other words, hold the rawness of vulnerability in your heart. Breathe with it, allow it to touch you, to inhabit you- open to it as fully as you currently can. Then make the feeling even stronger, even more intense. Do this in any way that works for you- in any way that makes the feeling stronger and more solid. Do this until the feeling becomes so heavy you could hold it in your hand. At that point, grab the feeling. And then just let it go. Let it float where it will, like a balloon, anywhere in the vast realm of empty space. Let if float out and out into the universe, desipersing into smaller and smaller particles, which become inconceivably tiny and distant. This is not a practice of getting rid of the mud, but rather a way of putting our emotions, thoughts, problems, and issues- any of the “bad” stuff we normally don’t want- into perspective. Instead of escalating, repressing, or rejecting, we intentionally contact the feeling, lean into it, intensify it, and then let it go into a new context- the vast, all-accomodating space of universe.

From pg. 37, Welcoming the Unwelcome, Pema Chodron

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Re: Letting go

Post by boda » Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:53 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:37 pm
This of course is a question of the definitive or absolute meaning..relatively we have to accept and reject things and continue on.
Either we suffer or we don't, that's definitive. :sage:

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