Western Myth of Zen

SunWuKong
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:07 pm

Matylda wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:58 pm
Astus wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:51 pm
Matylda wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:07 am
They do not contain zazen instructions which we are talking about.
I did not write zazen instructions, I wrote "private instructions and personal stories". It could also be added that meditation manuals were very much present both in the format of translated scriptures and treatises from India, and those authored in China. So if Chan had had anything to add there, it would have done so.

Anyway to exclude zen from zazen and its manifold instructions is a grievous mistake.
Agreed.

The only story I have then, is when Fukushima Roshi walked by, reached down and grabbed my hands, and corrected my mudra, forming the Cosmic Mudra or Hokkaijoin. There was a lot of other things I was doing that were not in good form; after that i got with the program. "The Introduction to Zazen" had no instructions, instead a lengthy heart-to-heart discussion on the topic of attachment, starting with his own experience leaving his family home to become a novice, his first experience sitting. Gold.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:13 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:46 pm
By whom?
By those who say that the sravakayana is the four noble truths.
No, the four foundations of mindfulness are found throughout all Buddhadharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Astus » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:13 pm
No, the four foundations of mindfulness are found throughout all Buddhadharma.
And the four noble truths are not? Also, do you know a Mahayana tradition that actually practises what is written in the Satipatthana Sutta? However, even if the four foundations of mindfulness are discussed, it is differentiated from the sravakayana version, or simply reinterpreted.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:27 am

Astus wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:13 pm
No, the four foundations of mindfulness are found throughout all Buddhadharma.
And the four noble truths are not? Also, do you know a Mahayana tradition that actually practises what is written in the Satipatthana Sutta? However, even if the four foundations of mindfulness are discussed, it is differentiated from the sravakayana version, or simply reinterpreted.
There are far more sources for the four foundations of mindfulness than that sutta. Mahāyāna is very rich with them.

You should learn one of the primary Buddhist languages, then you can search on and read these things for yourself rather that relying the limited perspectives of scholars and their translations.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Astus » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:27 am
There are far more sources for the four foundations of mindfulness than that sutta. Mahāyāna is very rich with them.
The question still remains: who practises them? Also, what constitutes a "Mahayana smrtyupasthana" is not the same as in Theravada. Hence it is neither practised nor accepted because it is viewed as a sravaka method.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

White Lotus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by White Lotus » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:37 pm

The question: "who practices them?" is perhaps the most important Zen question ever asked.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:15 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:27 am
There are far more sources for the four foundations of mindfulness than that sutta. Mahāyāna is very rich with them.
The question still remains: who practises them? Also, what constitutes a "Mahayana smrtyupasthana" is not the same as in Theravada. Hence it is neither practised nor accepted because it is viewed as a sravaka method.
There are of course differences in the presentations, but it is incorrect to state that the four foundations of mindfulness are absent in Mahāyāna, which was your contention above.

For example, the Akṣayamatinirdeśa explains:

Furthermore, the meditation of the four close placement of mindfulness of bodhisattvas is not concluded. If it is what are the four, it is like this: the close placement of mindfulness of scrutinizing the body in the body, the close placement of mindfulness of scrutinizing sensations in sensations, the close placement of mindfulness of scrutinizing the mind in the mind, and the close placement of mindfulness of scrutinizing the phenomena in the phenomena. What is the bodhisattva's close placement of mindfulness of scrutinizing the body in the body? If asked about the bodhisattva's scrutinizing and dwelling on the body in the body, it is scrutinizing and dwelling on his own and other bodies: considering the prior limit of the body, considered the posterior limit of the body, also considering how the body arises in the present, that is, "Alas, the body arises from error, is formed by cause and condition, lacks sensation, lacks agency, lacks an owner, is not property, and is produced by causes and conditions. In this way, for example, it is like the grass outside, a branch of a tree, its sap, and a forest, these are all produced by cause and condition, lack sensation, lack agency, lack an owner, and are not property. In the same way, this body is like a grass, a branch of a tree, sap, a forest, trees, walls, or an optical illusion. That which is grasped by aggregates, sense elements, and sense bases lacks sensation, lacks agency, lacks an owner, is not property, and it empty of phenomena of I, mine, permanence, stability, perpetuity, immovability, invulnerability, and immutablity. There is nothing that to be taken as mine in this body, however, this body that lacks an essential self will attain the essence, samyaksambodhi [...]

It continues for a couple of pages — the point being is that it is incorrect to assert that Mahāyāna lacks the four foundations of mindfulness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:16 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:13 pm
No, the four foundations of mindfulness are found throughout all Buddhadharma.
And the four noble truths are not? Also, do you know a Mahayana tradition that actually practises what is written in the Satipatthana Sutta?
People studying Abhidharma in the Tibetan tradition practice them in the same manner.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Astus » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:36 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:15 pm
There are of course differences in the presentations, but it is incorrect to state that the four foundations of mindfulness are absent in Mahāyāna, which was your contention above.
My points above were: 1. the four foundations of mindfulness is considered a hearer method, 2. the method taught within Mahayana is different from those in the sravakayana. So, I am not debating that there are various methods called four foundations of mindfulness in Mahayana, it's just that they are not identical to what one finds in Theravada.
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:16 pm
People studying Abhidharma in the Tibetan tradition practice them in the same manner.
I presume you mean the Kosha here, hence it is in the context of the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika teachings.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:14 pm

Astus wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:36 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:15 pm
There are of course differences in the presentations, but it is incorrect to state that the four foundations of mindfulness are absent in Mahāyāna, which was your contention above.
My points above were: 1. the four foundations of mindfulness is considered a hearer method, 2. the method taught within Mahayana is different from those in the sravakayana.
Obviously your first contention is wrong since the four foundations of mindfulness are found by that name in countless Mahāyāna sūtras.
So, I am not debating that there are various methods called four foundations of mindfulness in Mahayana, it's just that they are not identical to what one finds in Theravada.
Thervada is not the standard that defines them.

Astus wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:36 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:16 pm
People studying Abhidharma in the Tibetan tradition practice them in the same manner.
I presume you mean the Kosha here, hence it is in the context of the Sarvastivada and Sautrantika teachings.
Any practice done with Mahāyāna motivation becomes a Mahāyāna practice.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Astus » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:14 pm
Obviously your first contention is wrong since the four foundations of mindfulness are found by that name in countless Mahāyāna sūtras.
The name is there, the content varies.
Any practice done with Mahāyāna motivation becomes a Mahāyāna practice.
Motivation is only one half.

"If a bodhisattva abides in the signs of self, person, sentient being, or life-span, she or he is not a bodhisattva."
(Diamond Sutra, ch 3)

"Having generated the great mind to realize bodhi, it is necessary to recognize what constitutes the essence of the bodhi mind. Now, as for the substance of the bodhi mind, if one fails to generate it from one’s true mind, there is no source through which one might succeed in reaching bodhi. On account of this, it is essential that one differentiate clearly [what it is]. Only then does this result in Dharma practice which corresponds to correct causality."
(Peixiu: On Generating the Resolve to Become a Buddha)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:03 pm

Astus wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:14 pm
Obviously your first contention is wrong since the four foundations of mindfulness are found by that name in countless Mahāyāna sūtras.
The name is there, the content varies.
Any practice done with Mahāyāna motivation becomes a Mahāyāna practice.
Motivation is only one half.

"If a bodhisattva abides in the signs of self, person, sentient being, or life-span, she or he is not a bodhisattva."
(Diamond Sutra, ch 3)
This refers strictly to āryabodhisattvas. It does not refer to bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulation or application.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by pael » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:03 pm
Astus wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:14 pm
Obviously your first contention is wrong since the four foundations of mindfulness are found by that name in countless Mahāyāna sūtras.
The name is there, the content varies.
Any practice done with Mahāyāna motivation becomes a Mahāyāna practice.
Motivation is only one half.

"If a bodhisattva abides in the signs of self, person, sentient being, or life-span, she or he is not a bodhisattva."
(Diamond Sutra, ch 3)
This refers strictly to āryabodhisattvas. It does not refer to bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulation or application.
How then we ordinary sentient beings can seal dedication with emptiness?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:28 pm

pael wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:03 pm
Astus wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:00 pm


The name is there, the content varies.



Motivation is only one half.

"If a bodhisattva abides in the signs of self, person, sentient being, or life-span, she or he is not a bodhisattva."
(Diamond Sutra, ch 3)
This refers strictly to āryabodhisattvas. It does not refer to bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulation or application.
How then we ordinary sentient beings can seal dedication with emptiness?

Through bringing to mind the three wheels, no object of dedication, not dedication, and no one dedicating. But this is intellectual, not based on the realization of emptiness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

pael
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by pael » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:28 pm
pael wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:03 pm


This refers strictly to āryabodhisattvas. It does not refer to bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulation or application.
How then we ordinary sentient beings can seal dedication with emptiness?

Through bringing to mind the three wheels, no object of dedication, not dedication, and no one dedicating. But this is intellectual, not based on the realization of emptiness.
What is good study material on this? In English.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Astus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Astus » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:01 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:03 pm
This refers strictly to āryabodhisattvas. It does not refer to bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulation or application.
What I meant is that vow is not enough, one also needs some level of understanding, faith, renunciation, and compassion, since without those even the vow is baseless. So for instance the Surangama Sutra teaches that even before one enters the ten stages of faith, one must obtain "dry wisdom", called dry because it is without sensual desire. Then the ten stages of faith means faith, remembrance, zeal, wisdom, concentration, non-retrogression, protection of the Dharma, reflection, discipline, and vow show the necessary qualities needed to progress to the following three times ten stages, then four additional practices, until one reaches the ten bhumis.

Hyjeong wrote about those 55 levels:

"The fifty-five stations are simply the results obtained after resting the mind and removing falsities. Therefore, before completing the full (final) station (of buddhahood), if you reach level one, you will be satisfied with gaining a little and give rise to a pride in knowing and understanding the Dharma (completely). But in the end, if you enter great awareness (enlightenment), the former stations you passed through will all be illusions, and be useless states. Therefore a patriarchal teacher said, “I would rather die than walk through the fifty-five stations.”"
(Abstracts of the Essentials of the Mind Dharma, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 231)

And Huangbo:

"there is fast and slow in realizing this mind: there are those who attain no-mind in a single moment of thought after hearing the Dharma; those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten faiths, the ten abodes, the ten practices, and the ten conversions; and those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten stages [of the bodhisattva]. In spite of the length of time it takes them to [attain it, once they] reside in no-mind there is nothing else to be cultivated or realized. Truly without anything to be attained, true and not false [is no-mind]. Whether it is attained in a single moment of thought or at the tenth stage [of the bodhisattva], its efficacy is identical. There are no further gradations of profundity, only the useless striving of successive eons."
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 16)

So Linji said:

"But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch. Make no mistake, worthy Chan men! If you don’t find it here and now, you’ll go on transmigrating through the three realms for myriads of kalpas and thousands of lives, and, held in the clutch of captivating circumstances, be born in the wombs of asses or cows."
(Record of Linji, p 8, tr Sasaki)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:24 am

I don’t accept the 55 level scheme.
Astus wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:03 pm
This refers strictly to āryabodhisattvas. It does not refer to bodhisattvas on the paths of accumulation or application.
What I meant is that vow is not enough, one also needs some level of understanding, faith, renunciation, and compassion, since without those even the vow is baseless. So for instance the Surangama Sutra teaches that even before one enters the ten stages of faith, one must obtain "dry wisdom", called dry because it is without sensual desire. Then the ten stages of faith means faith, remembrance, zeal, wisdom, concentration, non-retrogression, protection of the Dharma, reflection, discipline, and vow show the necessary qualities needed to progress to the following three times ten stages, then four additional practices, until one reaches the ten bhumis.

Hyjeong wrote about those 55 levels:

"The fifty-five stations are simply the results obtained after resting the mind and removing falsities. Therefore, before completing the full (final) station (of buddhahood), if you reach level one, you will be satisfied with gaining a little and give rise to a pride in knowing and understanding the Dharma (completely). But in the end, if you enter great awareness (enlightenment), the former stations you passed through will all be illusions, and be useless states. Therefore a patriarchal teacher said, “I would rather die than walk through the fifty-five stations.”"
(Abstracts of the Essentials of the Mind Dharma, in Collected Works of Korean Buddhism, vol 3, p 231)

And Huangbo:

"there is fast and slow in realizing this mind: there are those who attain no-mind in a single moment of thought after hearing the Dharma; those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten faiths, the ten abodes, the ten practices, and the ten conversions; and those who attain no-mind after [passing through] the ten stages [of the bodhisattva]. In spite of the length of time it takes them to [attain it, once they] reside in no-mind there is nothing else to be cultivated or realized. Truly without anything to be attained, true and not false [is no-mind]. Whether it is attained in a single moment of thought or at the tenth stage [of the bodhisattva], its efficacy is identical. There are no further gradations of profundity, only the useless striving of successive eons."
(Essentials of the Transmission of Mind, in Zen Texts, BDK ed, p 16)

So Linji said:

"But because you students lack faith in yourselves, you run around seeking something outside. Even if, through your seeking, you did find something, that something would be nothing more than fancy descriptions in written words; never would you gain the mind of the living patriarch. Make no mistake, worthy Chan men! If you don’t find it here and now, you’ll go on transmigrating through the three realms for myriads of kalpas and thousands of lives, and, held in the clutch of captivating circumstances, be born in the wombs of asses or cows."
(Record of Linji, p 8, tr Sasaki)
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Astus » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:24 am
I don’t accept the 55 level scheme.
I don't think that's a problem, since it is not important in Zen except for some advocates of gradual practice. The point still remains, however, that to have the bodhisattva motivation one needs some level of faith and understanding as well.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Malcolm » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:50 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:24 am
I don’t accept the 55 level scheme.
I don't think that's a problem, since it is not important in Zen except for some advocates of gradual practice. The point still remains, however, that to have the bodhisattva motivation one needs some level of faith and understanding as well.
Your answer is a non sequitur.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Western Myth of Zen

Post by Astus » Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:50 pm
Your answer is a non sequitur.
In that case I was simply wrong in my presumption that by that you were rejecting the whole section on there being more to Mahayana than having motivation. :anjali:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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