Zen smell, Zen stink and Zen pong

[Dan74]

Just a few ruminations, folks, for your consideration.

Zen pong, similarly to any other spiritual pong, you can smell from a mile. There are the essential paraphernalia of a Zen practitioner proudly on display, a zafu, a little Buddha, or a rock on an altar, a scroll and a certain way of talking to emphasize that you are not just an ordinary Joe but a Zen Joe. It is a fashion item, something to enhance an identity. Thankfully I've encountered Zen pong exceedingly rarely out there in real world, though I'm sure I reeked of it at one certain stage.

Zen stink, is similar to a born-again Christian. You are full of Zen. Maybe brimming over with enthusiasm, you want to tell the world, wanna be a teacher. But in any case, you love it! There's not much application happening, not much by way of quiet and deep introspection (yet). Zen is still an external, something you treasure. Probably all practitioners have had this stink at the start, but hopefully it wore off eventually.

Zen smell is one of the many pitfalls. It is a lot more subtle than the stink and the pong, and people can sometimes find it very appealing, but it's not a healthy smell. Emptiness sickness, where a practitioner may be stuck in a quiet place, unmoved by the goings-on, unemotional and listless (Hakuin's story), or irresponsible since it's all empty, a world of mirages and phantoms, the Hyakujo's fox. Non-dual sickness where only the absolute view is embraced, and no respect for the particulars, for the relative, is entertained. The infamous spiritual bypass is a variety of this sickness. A subtle self can grow very big once the veil of appearances is partially pierced. Zen smell happens in various degrees a lot more often and a good teacher is needed to prevent it.

Thank you for reading!

_/|\_

[Jesse]

Just a few ruminations, folks, for your consideration.

Zen pong, similarly to any other spiritual pong, you can smell from a mile. There are the essential paraphernalia of a Zen practitioner proudly on display, a zafu, a little Buddha, or a rock on an altar, a scroll and a certain way of talking to emphasize that you are not just an ordinary Joe but a Zen Joe. It is a fashion item, something to enhance an identity. Thankfully I've encountered Zen pong exceedingly rarely out there in real world, though I'm sure I reeked of it at one certain stage.

Zen stink, is similar to a born-again Christian. You are full of Zen. Maybe brimming over with enthusiasm, you want to tell the world, wanna be a teacher. But in any case, you love it! There's not much application happening, not much by way of quiet and deep introspection (yet). Zen is still an external, something you treasure. Probably all practitioners have had this stink at the start, but hopefully it wore off eventually.

Zen smell is one of the many pitfalls. It is a lot more subtle than the stink and the pong, and people can sometimes find it very appealing, but it's not a healthy smell. Emptiness sickness, where a practitioner may be stuck in a quiet place, unmoved by the goings-on, unemotional and listless (Hakuin's story), or irresponsible since it's all empty, a world of mirages and phantoms, the Hyakujo's fox. Non-dual sickness where only absolute view is embraced, and no respect for the particulars, for the relative, is entertained. The infamous spiritual bypass is a variety of this sickness. A subtle self can grow very big once the veil of appearances is partially pierced. Zen smell happens in various degrees a lot more often and a good teacher is needed to prevent it.

Thank you for reading!

_/|\_

Indeed they are all stages revealed as the ego is understood, and at least from what I've come to understand as long as we possess our ego identity we will keep all of these habits, to varying degree's, it's simply wisdom that let's us recognize their smell and no longer cling to the ego's many habits.

The last one, emptiness sickness..It''s a dangerous one, nihilism and eternal-ism, the ego begins to struggle against or cling to these concepts also, which is make makes us sick. When we recognize what is happening, our ego even begins to have aversion to concepts, ideas and such. We may begin to think of defilement's as impure etc. but the truth is simply that the nature of the ego is to want, to desire. There is nothing impure in this essential nature, it simply has consequences, being the continuation of the ego it'self, the accumulation of karma.

I forgot why I wanted to respond really, I just woke up.

[LastLegend]

What reason for Zen sickness?

[lorem]

Though my view is as spacious as the sky,
My actions and respect for cause and effect are as fine as grains of flour. Padmasambhawa

Not Zen as such but still Dharma and a very good meditation.

gassho rei

[lorem]

Indeed they are all stages revealed as the ego is understood, and at least from what I've come to understand as long as we possess our ego identity we will keep all of these habits, to varying degree's, it's simply wisdom that let's us recognize their smell and no longer cling to the ego's many habits.

Just look at the obscurations of what even a sixth level bodhisattva. Just gotta do your best.

[muni]

I am not an expert of levels, since I don’t dare look down and up makes my head turn, which result in being quick down. But so very good to remind.
http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... scurations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/ar ... tions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mu Mut]

Just a few ruminations, folks, for your consideration.

Zen pong, similarly to any other spiritual pong, you can smell from a mile. There are the essential paraphernalia of a Zen practitioner proudly on display, a zafu, a little Buddha, or a rock on an altar, a scroll and a certain way of talking to emphasize that you are not just an ordinary Joe but a Zen Joe. It is a fashion item, something to enhance an identity. Thankfully I've encountered Zen pong exceedingly rarely out there in real world, though I'm sure I reeked of it at one certain stage.

Zen stink, is similar to a born-again Christian. You are full of Zen. Maybe brimming over with enthusiasm, you want to tell the world, wanna be a teacher. But in any case, you love it! There's not much application happening, not much by way of quiet and deep introspection (yet). Zen is still an external, something you treasure. Probably all practitioners have had this stink at the start, but hopefully it wore off eventually.

Zen smell is one of the many pitfalls. It is a lot more subtle than the stink and the pong, and people can sometimes find it very appealing, but it's not a healthy smell. Emptiness sickness, where a practitioner may be stuck in a quiet place, unmoved by the goings-on, unemotional and listless (Hakuin's story), or irresponsible since it's all empty, a world of mirages and phantoms, the Hyakujo's fox. Non-dual sickness where only the absolute view is embraced, and no respect for the particulars, for the relative, is entertained. The infamous spiritual bypass is a variety of this sickness. A subtle self can grow very big once the veil of appearances is partially pierced. Zen smell happens in various degrees a lot more often and a good teacher is needed to prevent it.

Thank you for reading!

_/|\_

A very truthful assessment.

In some ways I think Zen is Zen to stop people turning it into a religion or a ritual; or making themselves into 'Masters'.

A bit like ' the life of Brian'

[Rick]

phpBB [video]

[Mu Mut]

phpBB [video]

A picture (or video) paints a thousand words...!

[Mu Mut]

. Zen stink, is similar to a born-again Christian. You are full of Zen. Maybe brimming over with enthusiasm, you want to tell the world, wanna be a teacher. But in any case, you love it! There's not much application happening, not much by way of quiet and deep introspection (yet). Zen is still an external, something you treasure. Probably all practitioners have had this stink at the start, but hopefully it wore off eventually.

This resonates very strongly with me; when my father died my mother became a bornie, she was stripped clean by an American preacher when she was at her most vulnerable: paid for first class air travel, hotels, meals........

It's like a virus, and it per mutates all forms of religion and beliefs that develop 'special' rituals.

I believe that in Sri Lanka you will be put in prison if you take a photo of a Buddhist shrine: for disrespecting Buddha....

[Meido]

Good for considering levels and washing smells: excerpt from Hakuin's Keiso Dokuzui.

http://www.kaihan.com/fives.htm#2

~ Meido

[DGA]

This resonates very strongly with me; when my father died my mother became a bornie, she was stripped clean by an American preacher when she was at her most vulnerable: paid for first class air travel, hotels, meals........

It's like a virus, and it per mutates all forms of religion and beliefs that develop 'special' rituals.

I'm sorry to hear this happened to your mother. There are unscrupulous and vicious persons hiding under a vestment of virtue in many different contexts, and it's a shame to see someone fall prey to such a one.

That said: How would you go about proving your claim that this is involved or intermixed with "all forms of religion and beliefs that develop 'special' rituals"? Recall especially that we're in the Zen forum, and Zen practice is not without its rituals (dokusan is a ritual...), nor is it without claims to extraordinary knowledge.

Help me understand you better: are you saying that all rituals are snake oil? Or are you saying that there's a potential for abuse in all contexts in which rituals are brought to bear?

[Mu Mut]

This resonates very strongly with me; when my father died my mother became a bornie, she was stripped clean by an American preacher when she was at her most vulnerable: paid for first class air travel, hotels, meals........

It's like a virus, and it per mutates all forms of religion and beliefs that develop 'special' rituals.

I'm sorry to hear this happened to your mother. There are unscrupulous and vicious persons hiding under a vestment of virtue in many different contexts, and it's a shame to see someone fall prey to such a one.

That said: How would you go about proving your claim that this is involved or intermixed with "all forms of religion and beliefs that develop 'special' rituals"? Recall especially that we're in the Zen forum, and Zen practice is not without its rituals (dokusan is a ritual...), nor is it without claims to extraordinary knowledge.

Help me understand you better: are you saying that all rituals are snake oil? Or are you saying that there's a potential for abuse in all contexts in which rituals are brought to bear?

My son spent a year in Japan learning Aikido, and he tells me there are dozens of different ways of bowing!
So in Japan all forms of behaviour are ritualised.

So my thesis is about the origin of Zen.

A genuine Zen practitioner said 'this and that' to his students.
The students then said that he had actually meant ' this that and the other'

So the monk starting wearing robes to distinguish his form of Zen from others...
The students then said 'to be a Zen monk you must wear these robes'
....and then they said' to be a Zen monk you must act in this way; follow these rituals'

And so Zen in a japan became a religion.

IMO Western Zen is the purest form of the philosophy:
What is Zen?
zen is a way of freeing your mind.
From what?
The subconscious emotional control of your conscious mind.

..try turning that into a ritual!

[Meido]

From what?

From, among other things, self-referential preconceptions and notions.

..try turning that into a ritual!

I would much rather turn uninformed critique into informed dialogue. As a start, it is helpful to familiarize oneself with the basics of Zen history, teaching and praxis.

I do hope you will not take this (or other) threads in the same direction you did a few over at ZFI.

~ Meido

[Dan74]

Hi LL

I hope Meido Roshi can comment on Zen sickness. As far as I can make out, it's due to hanging on to one of the many states that occur in practice - the bliss, the Void, etc.

Mu Mut, I think one can fetishise ritual and teachers and one can fetishise being above rituals and teachers. On the other hand, rituals and teachers can serve a useful purpose and ultimately they can just be it.

[Mu Mut]

From what?

From, among other things, self-referential preconceptions and notions.

..try turning that into a ritual!

I would much rather turn uninformed critique into informed dialogue. As a start, it is helpful to familiarize oneself with the basics of Zen history, teaching and praxis.

I do hope you will not take this (or other) threads in the same direction you did a few over at ZFI.

~ Meido

I would like to suggest that you should think outside the box.

...ie: Zen without restrictions of thought, 'freethinking Zen' in other words. Zen without rules and rituals.

[Mu Mut]

Hi LL

I hope Meido Roshi can comment on Zen sickness. As far as I can make out, it's due to hanging on to one of the many states that occur in practice - the bliss, the Void, etc.

Mu Mut, I think one can fetishise ritual and teachers and one can fetishise being above rituals and teachers. On the other hand, rituals and teachers can serve a useful purpose and ultimately they can just be it.

I would definitely agree there is place for teachers to teach about the rituals and history of Zen.
...who could dispute that; in the classroom much can be learnt!

But there is always a danger of turning a 'concept of free thinking' into a rigid dogma of rituals and 'special' rules and norms.

As in ' the Zen Master wears no cloths......'

[Dan74]

Please lets return to the topic and refrain from ad homs.

[Astus]

Comparing the "three Zen fragrances" with a traditional list of stages shows that while the ancient ones discussed traps of realisation, the pong and stink are fascination with outer rituals and labels. But it is not surprising that people are mesmerised by the illusion of Zen when what is being presented as Zen is the illusion. So, either attachment to robes, labels and ceremonies is a skilful means, or it is wrong to have them from the beginning.

[muni]

I found an old Japanese book in which is written the importance to discern what is prior. This itself is what needs to see eventually conceit, losing courage, losing diligence...
Then by this discerment, all what can support is respected.