Bankei and three nens question

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Alex123
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Bankei and three nens question

Post by Alex123 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:19 pm

Hello all,

Is Bankei teaching:

a) to stop 2nd and 3rd nen from arising?
or
b) recognize that 2nd and 3rd nen are not different from 1st nen? (All are anatta)



Thanks,

Alex
Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks can find its way to the ocean"

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lorem
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Re: Bankei and three nens question

Post by lorem » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:36 pm

nen or mindfulness. Could you point out to me these 3 nens and what Bankei is referring to? Just did a search and found innate and unborn. Appears to hold a rather profound view.
I should be meditating.

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Alex123
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Re: Bankei and three nens question

Post by Alex123 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:47 pm

lorem wrote:nen or mindfulness. Could you point out to me these 3 nens and what Bankei is referring to? Just did a search and found innate and unborn. Appears to hold a rather profound view.
Basically this how it goes (as I understand it).

1st nen) Perception of something. Example: seeing a full moon.
2nd nen) reacting toward it "how wonderful"
3rd nen) being aware of first two nens and self reflecting on them.
Even the water melting from the snow-capped peaks can find its way to the ocean"

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lorem
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Re: Bankei and three nens question

Post by lorem » Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:11 pm

Oh okay thanks.

Thoughts are not the problem, thinking is.
I should be meditating.

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Dan74
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Re: Bankei and three nens question

Post by Dan74 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:10 am

There's a bit more on nen here:

http://members.core.com/~ascensus/docs/nen.html

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Astus
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Re: Bankei and three nens question

Post by Astus » Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:41 am

This three nens system is fairly primitive and from Bankei's Zen perspective pointless.

It is primitive, as it shows how certain teachers know little to nothing about 'fundamental' teachings, Abhidharma and Yogacara, as both contain various explanations and systems for analysing mind and mind moments. (E.g. The Cittas) But even before when turn to complicated Buddhist scholastic texts, the five aggregates explain quite well what the "three nens" tries to say. The first nen of direct sensual experience is the body aggregate, the second nen of judging and naming is the second and third aggregate, the third nen of reflection third and fourth aggregate. Now, according to the teachings, the problem is not with the aggregates themselves, but with attachment and wrong identification. Clinging to only bodily impressions (first nen) is not only pointless (does not lead to liberation) but also just another form of self view.

Zen in general, and Bankei in particular is not about setting up systems to explain how the mind works. First of all, there are already texts and traditions that do just that. So, if one wants an in depth teaching, there are sources and teachers to turn to. Bankei taught about the Unborn, that is, a mind that is not bound to any state but open and aware. It is unborn, as it is not born as this or that - e.g. angry, happy, mindful, senseless, etc. - in other words, without self, without identification. To say that one should practise with or stay in a particular state of mind, that is exactly giving birth to a mind.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Topologie
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Re: Bankei and three nens question

Post by Topologie » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:05 pm

lorem wrote:
Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:11 pm
Oh okay thanks.

Thoughts are not the problem, thinking is.
“Just did a search and found innate and unborn.”

Ha!

Your dish was so magnificent and subtle, that only an old fox could savor it!

Thanks for arising happpiness and a smile today!

( A true gem! Will use this in the future! Thank you once more!)

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