Non Abiding

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White Lotus
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Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:14 pm

if God is ''all in all'' and one has realized God and become God, one is emptiness... however when one is no longer able to abide as 'all' one is non abiding.
when one is unable to abide in or as Mind or Consciousness then one is non abiding. things come and things go. for a short time we abide in a place or state, however this position returns to one of non abiding. not abiding in emptiness: not abiding in Mind: not abiding in God. not abiding in non abiding. there is no place to abide... this is 'emptiness'; one cannot even abide in 'this' except with brief graspings. there is no abiding in This/God, except temporarily. one must not become attached, one cannot become attached. non abiding non abiding, no state to rest in. not even in non abiding. this is emptiness/mind without abiding. no special state to rest in, just skillful means and mindfulness making life a little easier. samsara becomes nirvana, but there is no one to abide in nirvana, nor is there any abiding.

the ultimate claim is to have gone beyond God, ie to be a buddha. this is either arrogant hubris or a simple statement of fact. if one has gone beyond God, this is a no one going and a no one abiding anywhere in anything. not only can there be extinction of self, but also extinction of anywhere to abide. And so... non abiding. :meditate:

''cultivate the mind that has no where to abide''. Hui neng.
someone else though might say... what mind is there and where is there anything that can be abided in? (in relative/practical and absolute terms)

hope this is helpful,

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:12 pm

non abiding:

does not abide in awareness or universal mind.
does not abide as buddha.
does not abide in any kind of truth.
does not abide in love.
does not abide in God.
does not abide in any attainment.
does not abide as one.

though all the above can be seen as dharmas. there is no abiding in any kind of dharma. there is no abiding mind.
one does not even abide in non abiding. all mental states are naturally non abiding. when there is no self there is no one to abide. non abiding is true non attachment.

my contention is with the use 'mind' with non abiding. it is unhelpful

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Dan74
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by Dan74 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:46 am

Not sure what God has to do with it, Tom, or 'not able to'.

'Non abiding' is pretty much 'non-attaching' - it's not just the fact that 'abiding anywhere' is impossible since change is constant. One can still cling to silence or bliss and it may last in some form for a long time. It is recognition and relinquishing of all clinging, all attachment, to all states/non-states. There is nothing whatsoever to hold on to, no matter how pleasurable, beautiful and sublime. Much easier said than done.

_/|\_

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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:09 pm

It is recognition and relinquishing of all clinging, all attachment, to all states/non-states. There is nothing whatsoever to hold on to, no matter how pleasurable, beautiful and sublime.
well put.

non abiding is a non attainment. when personal experience of self, mind and body are relinquished there is the impossibility of abiding. there may be the appearance of clinging, but actually there is none where experience of self no longer persists.

ordinary meditation and mindfulness become impossible. only shikantaza is natural in this no place. shikantaza not actually being a practice, but naturally a state of rest without any kind of effort.

why mention of God? because attainment of godhood is a level on the path. perhaps buddha was one and yet he did not abide as or in this one, thus transcending it? i think the urna points towards this attainment of one. however the buddha did not abide as one.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

DGA
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by DGA » Sat Oct 31, 2015 5:39 pm

White Lotus wrote:[why mention of God? because attainment of godhood is a level on the path.
On what path is the attainment of godhood a level?
perhaps buddha was one and yet he did not abide as or in this one, thus transcending it? i think the urna points towards this attainment of one. however the buddha did not abide as one.
:shrug:

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:44 pm

there is no path.

as to becoming Brahma, this is before becoming a Buddha. its in the sutras but my knowledge, as limited as it is, is unable to provide you with a reference.

Brahma is consciousness embodied. the ocean of consciousness in all its gentle beauty is seen before one realises the nameless and wordless, after this 'one' appears at the centre of emptiness. once all was empty then one appeared again.

one initially appears after own nature is extinguished, it disappears after the nameless and wordless are known (in not knowing) and then reappears above the nameless and wordless. like a point within three-fold emptiness. the point within three circles, like an eye.

I would appreciate some humour here. all this is enough to give someone a headache! its probably just nonsense.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Non Abiding

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:21 pm

White Lotus wrote:there is no path.

as to becoming Brahma, this is before becoming a Buddha. its in the sutras but my knowledge, as limited as it is, is unable to provide you with a reference.

Brahma is consciousness embodied. the ocean of consciousness in all its gentle beauty is seen before one realises the nameless and wordless, after this 'one' appears at the centre of emptiness. once all was empty then one appeared again.

one initially appears after own nature is extinguished, it disappears after the nameless and wordless are known (in not knowing) and then reappears above the nameless and wordless. like a point within three-fold emptiness. the point within three circles, like an eye.

I would appreciate some humour here. all this is enough to give someone a headache! its probably just nonsense.

best wishes, Tom.
No such thing a God in Buddhism.

You are mixing eternalism with Buddhism.

Where is the humour :zzz:

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Re: Non Abiding

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:06 pm

Hi Tom,

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and trying to understand your perspective. I keep getting confused, though when you say
White Lotus wrote:there is no path.
and then go on to describe a path, or at least a trajectory:
as to becoming Brahma, this is before becoming a Buddha. its in the sutras but my knowledge, as limited as it is, is unable to provide you with a reference.

Brahma is consciousness embodied. the ocean of consciousness in all its gentle beauty is seen before one realises the nameless and wordless, after this 'one' appears at the centre of emptiness. once all was empty then one appeared again.

one initially appears after own nature is extinguished, it disappears after the nameless and wordless are known (in not knowing) and then reappears above the nameless and wordless. like a point within three-fold emptiness. the point within three circles, like an eye.
I'm also trying to understand why this is in the Zen forum.

Having a confuse over here.

:shrug:

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Tue Nov 03, 2015 2:05 pm

i wouldnt take any of this too seriously.
no mind, no self, no body is non abiding.
mind, self or body is abiding.
is all emptiness? i no longer have a clue.

this is my challenge to the thread: non abiding mind,
but since i probably dont know what im talking about,
probably best not to take it too seriously.

what is this? a peach on a tree.
what do i know? nothing?
who is this? havent a clue.
what is this? who said this.

this thread is probably just a wast of your time.
my sincere appologies if i have wasted your precious time.

sorry, i probably wont be posting for a while.
i dont want to give you or myself any more of a headache.

flow with the wind,
drop like a stone.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:20 pm

coming back to the issue of non-abiding.
even when personal experience of a self or SELF are experienced there is no abiding as a self.
when ME/True Self/God has fallen off like a giant flea from a dead dog, without any effort or intention... still no abiding.

when seeing is mind and seeing is being itself still no abiding as mind nor as seeing.
one cannot abide in or as Prajna... one only sees and is mindful from time to time.
no abiding.

when ''this'' is seen, mind is seen, the seeing itself is the being, the existing. this seeing comes and goes. one cannot abide in it.
when ''this'' is perceived to be emptiness; still there is no abiding as emptiness, nor anyone to abide as emptiness. even seeing comes and goes like the clouds or bursts of lightening. flashes in the sky. extraordinary words for for an ordinary experience.

no one abides in anything. there is no one and non abiding is practiced by even donkeys.

sorry to keep coming back to this issue of non-abiding, but it is more fundamental than even the mind/seeing that perceives.
attitude and perception are fundamental, but non abiding is more fundamental even than these.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:46 pm

referring to my previous post... i dont wish to seem disrespectful to those who trust in God. it is the personal aspect of ME/God that is dropped. it can be said that on a level beyond the personal aspect that God is true nature and being, or emptiness and form. i would be mortified if i felt that any theist reading my posts was offended.

best wishes, Tom. :consoling:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:26 pm

where there is none/no one, there can be no abiding... however there is 'this'. you are free to say what you like about 'this': this is abiding, this is non abiding. i can no longer take a firm position on the matter of non abiding as not been 'mind'. when i am not aware, i am thinking, or imagining things. mind is this. this is just this. we cant say mind does not abide. we can only say that no one abides as mind/this. it is easy to say mind is non abiding if we mean that awareness is non abiding, because awareness comes and goes.

the matter of none/no one is interesting because it is the mark of some buddhas. they have attained exitinction and so are now no one, no person, no self, no mind. None/No one is mentioned most powerfully in the Jewish and Christian Scriptures where we are told in many places about None, the no one. "there is none like unto thee", ''there is none before me'', ''there is none righteous, no not one.'' None is a figure that will save and deliver where no saviour or deliverance is possible. it seems here we find a regular reference to the buddha in Jewish and Christian scripture, where buddha/None is equal to or even superior to God.

there is no abiding in non abiding... as i see it, non abiding is part of our natural condition. no mental states are permanent. only ''this'' is permanent, not awareness. we can say abiding in this, as this or not abiding in this or as this. this is just this.

if the moderators wish to delete this whole thread they are welcome to. my original argument was that no thing abides, not even mind. now i recognise that mind can be said to be that which is non abiding. (as well as abiding).

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:45 pm

buddha is not mind, nor does buddha have mind. mind proceeds from buddha. there is no mind/this to be called non abiding.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

muni
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by muni » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:28 pm

buddha is not mind, nor does buddha have mind. mind proceeds from buddha. there is no mind/this to be called non abiding.
How can there be other than peace before mind? Guru Rinpoche.
“We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves” H H Dalai Lama

"Relax."

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:27 pm

There can be other than peace because mind is not buddha. Buddha has no form. Nameless and wordless. Empty of emptiness.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:35 pm

Yes Muni, without/before mind there can be peace, but mind is this life. in this life pain comes to all. im sorry.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Non Abiding

Post by White Lotus » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:09 pm

formless emptiness is buddha. formed emptiness is mind/this. though buddha is formless we see him, but he has no form.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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