Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Sara H wrote: All beings are a part of the Cosmic Buddha, Viarochana Buddha, or the Unborn.
Do you have a citation for that? This sounds much different than how Dharmakaya Samantabhadra/Vajradhara or Sambhogakaya Buddhas are understood in tantric Buddhism.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Astus »

Sara H wrote:there's a difference between experiencing your BuddhaNature (A direct experience of the Unborn) and Being a Buddha (someone who will not be reborn again.)
"If sravakas, pratyekabuddhas and the Bodhisattva of the ten abodes do not see the Buddha-Nature, we say "Nirvana". It is not "Great Nirvana". If they clearly see the Buddha-Nature, there is Great Nirvana."
(Nirvana Sutra, ch 29, tr Yamamoto)

"The Buddha-Nature of beings is what all Buddhas can see; it is not what sravakas and pratyekabuddhas can know. All beings do not see the Buddha-Nature. That is why they are all bound up by defilement and repeat birth and death. When one sees the Buddha-Nature, no bonds of defilement can tie one up. Emancipation comes and one attains Great Nirvana."
(ch 34)

"To see the Buddha-Nature is to attain unsurpassed Enlightenment. To attain unsurpassed Enlightenment is to arrive at unsurpassed Great Nirvana."
(ch 36)

"Whoever sees his nature is a buddha; whoever doesn't is a mortal. But if you can find your buddha-nature apart from your mortal nature, where is it? Our mortal nature is our buddhanature. Beyond this nature there's no buddha. The buddha is our nature. There's no buddha besides this nature. And there's no nature besides the buddha."
(Bodhidharma, Bloodstream Sermon, tr Red Pine)

"To use wisdom to contemplate all the dharmas without grasping or rejecting is to see the nature and accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood."
"If you recognize your own mind and see the nature, you will definitely accomplish the enlightenment of buddhahood."
"If you recognize the self-nature, with a single [experience of] enlightenment you will attain the stage of buddhahood."
"To be enlightened to the Dharma of nonthought is to arrive at the stage of buddhahood."

(Platform Sutra, ch 2, tr McRae)

"since the mind of all sentient beings is the same as original Buddha-Nature, there is no need to practice; for if one recognizes one's own Mind and sees one's own Nature, there is nothing at all to seek outside oneself."
(Huangbo, Wan-ling Record, tr Lok To)
Sara H wrote:The Buddha Himself experienced His first kensho as a child. That's not the same as Full Enlightenment.
'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' (MN 36)

The first level of absorption is quite far from seeing buddha-nature, but it is not unheard of that people confuse it with enlightenment.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Astus wrote:
Sara H wrote:The Buddha Himself experienced His first kensho as a child. That's not the same as Full Enlightenment.
'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' (MN 36)

The first level of absorption is quite far from seeing buddha-nature, but it is not unheard of that people confuse it with enlightenment.
Doesn't Zen follow the Mahayana tradition that Shakyamuni was an emanation of the "Eternal Buddha" as explained in the Lotus sutra? Those teachings on the Buddha becoming awakened are just a display (12 deeds) for the shravakas to learn the path to liberation, the magical city, which is just a resting place before one embarks on the Bodhisattva path to the complete perfect awakening of Buddhahood.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

Yeah, Astus, you're not understanding the difference between Buddhahood itself, and talking about Buddha Nature.

You absolutely do not have the same wisdom as the Buddha, simply because of a kensho.

Absolutely not.

Yes, Buddha Nature is unsurpassed Enlightenment Itself, but that doesn't mean that YOU as a person, stay within that state. Simply glimpsing the Eternal, is not the same as you reaching the same attainment as the Buddha.

That glimpse, is a glimpse into the Buddha Mind. The Buddha Nature. And it's that PLACE which grows with training and practice. But simply having a kensho does not in any way get rid of all your greed, anger, and delusion.

Nor does it clean up all of your past life karma. Nor does it mean you won't continue to compound karma and do harmful actions.

You're not understanding the All is One, and, All is different aspects.

The Two Truths.

Yes, everything has Buddha Nature. Everything is not-seperate from the Eternal.

But you still ALSO have greed. Have anger, and have delusion.

You still have klessa vassanna that you have not cleaned up.

That klessa vassanna (those karmic perfumes) are still apart of the Buddha Nature themselves, but that doesn't mean that they don't have real effects on you life, and create real karmic consequences and harm.

You don't become free from suffering, and rebirth, just because you have a kensho.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Hi Sarah,

With all due respect, I don't think Astus is mistaken. The scriptural interpretation that Astus is relating to would not equate kensho with truly seeing the Buddha Nature. Even tenth bhumi bodhisattvas can only see a "general approximation" of the Buddha Nature. Only Buddhas can really "see" the Buddha Nature.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

Just to point out, the Buddha Himself talked about the final stages of training before Buddhahood in when talking about the Three Knowledges in the Samaññaphala Sutra.
THE THREE KNOWLEDGES


1.) The knowledge of how one's past life karma and rebirth's effect oneself:

[The Buddha said:]

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. He recollects his manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he recollects his manifold past lives in their modes and details. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful."

2.) The knowledge of how karma and rebirth effect the fortunes of others:

[The Buddha said:]

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the breakup of the body, after death, have re-appeared in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the breakup of the body, after death, have re-appeared in a good destination, a heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma."

3.) The knowledge of how to end the cycle of rebirth through holy life and spiritual training:

[The Buddha said:]

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, the monk directs and inclines it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. He discerns, as it is actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' His heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, is released from the fermentation of sensuality, the fermentation of becoming, the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' "

http://www.buddhasutra.com/files/samannaphala_sutta.htm
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

No, that's not what we're referring to in Zen when we talk of "seeing our Buddha Nature" tomamundsen.

We are talking about a kensho. That's literally what a kensho is.

Having a direct, "seeing" or knowing, or experiencing of the Buddha Nature.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

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tomamundsen wrote:Doesn't Zen follow the Mahayana tradition that Shakyamuni was an emanation of the "Eternal Buddha" as explained in the Lotus sutra?
Yes, of course it does.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

I mean I think what you're not understanding, Astus, is that there's more than one kind of kensho.

The first initial kensho, is just the first one.

The first seeing of your Buddha Nature.

But that's not Full Buddhahood. In that brief beautiful moment it is, but that moment ends.

You "come back to earth" as it were, and have to continue to do your own training. You don't stay in that state.

A Buddha is someone who is capable of staying in that state all the time. The reason they can do it, is because it is your karmic tendencies, that pull you out of that state. And so you have to clean those up first, if you want to stay in that beautiful place.

This is what is talked about in the 10 Oxherding photos. Having a kensho is great, but you still have to train the Ox. It doesn't just magically train itself just because you've had a beautiful spiritual experience.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Sara H wrote: The first initial kensho, is just the first one.

The first seeing of your Buddha Nature.
It's not really seeing the Buddha Nature though. Malcolm's translation of the Nirvana Sutra says this:
Son of a good family, bodhisattvas of the tenth stage can seen only a general approximation of the tathagātagarbha that exists in their bodies.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

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Sara H wrote:You don't become free from suffering, and rebirth, just because you have a kensho.
Kensho means literally "see nature". There are a number of possible interpretations what it could mean to see nature.

1. An intellectual understanding of emptiness.
2. Attaining stream-entry.
3. Attaining the 1st bhumi.
4. Attaining the 8th bhumi.
5. Attaining buddhahood.

There is a well known phrase in Zen: see nature and become buddha. It seems to point to the 5th option. Just as it is stated in the Nirvana Sutra and by numerous ancestors, as quoted previously. Which one is your interpretation?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

I think you guys are being a little too in your heads about this.

This is something that has to be directly experienced. Speaking as someone who's had more than one kensho, I can tell you that I am not a Buddha. I still have a great deal of training left to go before that happens.

I do have Buddha Nature, and I am not-separate from the Buddha Nature in any way. And that includes my karma. But I have not cleaned up all my karma from all my past lives, nor, have I removed all ignorance.

What I do have is is the knowledge of the Unborn, and the certainty that a kensho gives of KNOWING that, (and you do really know) which gives you a faith in the Unborn to continue your training.

But knowing that I am not separate from the Buddha Nature, and am a part of it at all times, and being able to take Refuge and listen to it, does not mean that as a person, that I have the same level of wisdom that Shakyamuni Buddha did.

I do not. Sometimes I am speaking from that place. Sometimes I raise the eyebrows of the Buddha, and sometimes I do not. But because I do not always, because I still have karma yet to be cleaned up; I cannot call myself a Buddha.

That would not be accurate.

A kensho gives you the certainty that is necessary to have the faith to sit through some very intense things. But it doesn't do that sitting for you. It doesn't do that training for you. You still have to do the hard work. The Buddha Nature does the heavy lifting, but you still have to put in that effort.

One's ignorance and karma does not go away simply because one has had a kensho. (or even more than one kensho for that matter) Training after initial realization takes hard work.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Astus »

Sara H wrote:I think you guys are being a little too in your heads about this.
This is something that has to be directly experienced. Speaking as someone who's had more than one kensho, I can tell you that I am not a Buddha. I still have a great deal of training left to go before that happens.
Could you please define what exactly you mean by kensho? What is actually realised in/with kensho? What is the nature that is seen? Please be specific, maybe then the differences can be sorted out.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

Well it wouldn't work. The only way to understand a kensho is by having one. It's not something you can understand intellectually.

People who've had one, can talk about it with other people who've had one, and they can have a mutually understood conversation.

But if someone hasn't, that person will only have an intellectual idea or concept of what they think a kensho is, which isn't capable of being accurate due to the nature of kensho.

It's actually impossible to understand a kensho with the intellect.


I mean this is why, in a lot of Zen traditions, traditionally they wouldn't even teach you any Dharma until you've had a kensho.

They'd just wait until you've had one, and then they'd be like "Okay, now we can actually teach you something."

Because the student had had a direct experience of the Unborn, they now could build upon that.

One of the Soto Ancestors actually was super intellectual (actually many Zen ancestors were, it's a common theme) and wrote all these essays and papers and things about the Dharma. And then after they'd had a kensho, they took everything they had previously written, and just threw it in a pile and burned it.

Because they knew what they had written before was wrong, and they didn't want to delude anybody.

A great deal of the Dharma, can only be understood if you've had a kensho.

I know that's not a very big comfort, but it is, what it is. Although the good news is, if someone continues with their meditation and training, and keeps being willing to "let go of everything" as Dogen put it, a kensho is pretty much guaranteed to happen sooner or later.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

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Sara H wrote:Well it wouldn't work. The only way to understand a kensho is by having one. It's not something you can understand intellectually.
If one does not know what an apple is, one can eat dozens of apples without knowing that they are apples. That is, how can one tell if it is a kensho if one has no idea what a kensho is?
Sara H wrote:I mean this is why, in a lot of Zen traditions, traditionally they wouldn't even teach you any Dharma until you've had a kensho.
They'd just wait until you've had one, and then they'd be like "Okay, now we can actually teach you something."
One can have kensho without knowing any Dharma? I think the following applies to this situation, from chapter 27 of the Nirvana Sutra:

"If one can see the Buddha-Nature even without having heard this Great Nirvana Sutra, all beings must also be able to see it, even though they have not heard it."

However, even bodhisattvas on the highest level cannot see the buddha-nature:

"Although innumerable Bodhisattvas may well perfectly practise the paramitas [spiritual perfections], they might only reach the stage of the ten abodes [“bhumis”] and yet may not be able to see the Buddha-Nature."
"Such Bodhisattvas may well reach the stage of the ten soils [“bhumis” - stages of Bodhisattva development], and yet they cannot clearly see the Buddha-Nature. How could sravakas and pratyekabuddhas well see [it]?"

(Nirvana Sutra, ch 12)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

That is, how can one tell if it is a kensho if one has no idea what a kensho is?
When you have a kensho, you will know. It completely changes you and you know, forever afterward, that you HAVE changed. And other people who've experienced kensho (senior monks and Zen Masters) can confirm that kensho.

A confirmation of kensho is actually a requirement for Dharma Transmission in Zen.
One can have kensho without knowing any Dharma?
Yes, they can. Children can have kenshos. Christians can have kenshos.

Buddhism does not have a license on experiencing the Unborn. It's a natural part of life.

Buddhism isn't just teaching people how to have kensho's though. Having a kensho is kind of like a new beginning. An entry into a more mature phase of training.

It's like you have sprouted that seed of Buddhahood, and now you get to do the work of tending to the sprout and guarding it, and protecting it, and growing it into a fine tree of Buddhahood.

There's a nice bit by Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett who talks about this that might be helpful:
Training after Realization

By Rev. Master Jiyu-Kennett

From a Lecture on Butsu Kōjō Ji, "The Experiencing
of That Which is Above and Beyond Buddhahood"
[a chapter of the Shobogenzo]

"What this chapter is about is a matter of great importance:
the training that comes after a realization of the Truth.
Many things have been written in Zen about the training
which leads to realization; very few indeed discuss the
training which follows it. One can easily get the impression
that realization, kenshō, an experience of enlightenment, or
however you wish to phrase it, is the end of Zen training. It
is not. It is, rather, a new beginning, an entrance into a more
mature phase of Buddhist training. To take it as an ending,
and to “dine out” on such an experience without doing the
training that will deepen and extend it, is one of the greatest
tragedies of which I know. There must be continuous devel-
opment, otherwise you will be as a wooden statue sitting
upon a plinth to be dusted, and the life of Buddha will not
increase.

To have the Wheel of the Dharma turn, to find one’s
Buddha Nature, to know the Unborn is not enough. It is
enough in the sense that you must be content and look for
nothing more; it is not enough in the sense that you must
never cease becoming Buddha. One must be worthy of it,
and to be worthy of it is to keep up the training after that
first realization. "

Continued…
From The Roar of the Tigress, Volume II
Page:225

http://shastaabbey.org/pdf/bookRoar2.pdf
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Sara H wrote:Yes, they can. Children can have kenshos. Christians can have kenshos.
Buddhism does not have a license on experiencing the Unborn. It's a natural part of life.
So the wisdom espoused by the Buddha to extinguish suffering is not unique to Buddhism, and also not necessary to study, since children and Christians can experience it?
If the kensho is merely another type of mystical experience and not the extinction of suffering, why pursue it?
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Sara H wrote:Yes, they can. Children can have kenshos. Christians can have kenshos.
Then what is the use of Buddhadharma?
A) It makes spiritual training and progress a hell of a lot faster. (Like vastly faster).

B) The purpose of Buddhist training is not simply to have a kensho. Most of the real Buddhist training comes after kensho.

And C) while it is even theoretically possible to become a Buddha without ever hearing any Buddhist teachings, as Bodhidharma pointed out, the chances of success with that would be one in a million.

The purpose of Buddhist practice, is that it makes spiritual training and progress, far, far easier (and safer). We're talking lifetimes and lifetimes quicker.
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Sorry to edit my post right under you!
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Re: Does Zen result in Buddhahood as described in sutras?

Post by Sara H »

Monlam Tharchin wrote: So the wisdom espoused by the Buddha to extinguish suffering is not unique to Buddhism, and also not necessary to study, since children and Christians can experience it?
If the kensho is merely another type of mystical experience and not the extinction of suffering, why pursue it?
The wisdom of the Buddha, is not just to experience the Unborn and have a kensho. Most mystics in most religions have done that. A lot of the gnostic teachings express that beautifully.

The wisdom of the Buddha, is teaching people how to end the wheel of birth and death. That it is possible to be free from suffering, and to stop being reborn around the wheel of the six realms of existence.

For example, many Taoists had kensho's, (that's why a lot of things they say sound very Zen-like) but they still didn't understand Dependent Origination, and know how to end the process of death and rebirth and be free from suffering.

Simply having a kensho, does not stop the cycle of death and rebirth and the continuation of suffering. It's a big spiritual step towards that, but it is not the end, in and of itself.

Buddhism teaches spiritual training that goes beyond simply having a kensho.

A kensho is just the first big step in that.
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