"If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness..."

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seeker242
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"If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness..."

Post by seeker242 »

"If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness......you're on the verge of unbinding"
Some Chan or zen teacher said this once. I'm having trouble recalling who or where I heard it. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Maybe it was Hsuan Hua? Or, Shunryu Suzuki? But it was about more than just mindfulness. It also said something like "the enlightenment of no enlightenment" and maybe the "morality of no morality" or something similar. I don't remember exactly.

Was wondering if this sounds familiar to anyone? I think it was a contemporary teacher, not an ancient one. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Astus
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by Astus »

In vol 30 of the Jingde Chuandeng Lu it is quoted from Shenhui:

無念念者即念真如。無生生者即生實相。無住而住常住涅槃。無行而行即超彼岸。

Mindfulness of no mindfulness is the mindfulness of suchness. Birth of no birth is the true character. Nature and no nature is the eternal nature of nirvana. Movement and no movement is to cross to the other shore.

Compare that to what is said in chapter 4 of Platform Sutra:

真如即是念之體,念即是真如之用。

Suchness is the essence of thought, thought is the function of suchness. (tr. McRae)

Note: I took the term "no mindfulness" from Broughton's "Zongmi on Chan", as he translates wunian that way. From p 88:

"Knowing is no mindfulness and no form. Who is characterized as self, and who is characterized as other? When you are aware that all characteristics are void, it is true mind, no mindfulness. If a thought arises, be aware of it; once you are aware of it, it will disappear. The excellent gate of practice lies here alone. Therefore, even though you fully cultivate all the practices, just take no mindfulness as the axiom. If you just get the mind of no mindfulness, then love and hatred will spontaneously become pale and faint, compassion and wisdom [prajna] will spontaneously increase in brightness, sinful karma will spontaneously be eliminated, and you will spontaneously be zealous in meritorious practices."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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seeker242
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by seeker242 »

Thank you Astus. You're the best! :smile: I very much enjoy reading your posts here. :smile:

So where do you find all these interesting passages? Mostly from internet resources? Or a paper library? Or just remember from previous study? For example, how did you find the above? Do you read chinese? How did you learn all this stuff? Is the Jingde Chuandeng Lu the same as Record of the Transmission of the Lamp? Or a volume within it? What % of chan texts do you think are translated into English so far? What % are available on the internet in English do you think?

:bow:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by Astus »

where do you find all these interesting passages?
I searched for "mindfulness of no mindfulness", came up with a quote from Shenhui in the book Zongmi on Chan where the endnote contained the original in pinyin, then searched for the Chinese equivalent on the internet and in CBETA.
Do you read chinese? How did you learn all this stuff?
I can cope with Chinese Buddhist texts, but I'm not proficient in the language. I learn by being curious of what the original passage says using online dictionaries.
Is the Jingde Chuandeng Lu the same as Record of the Transmission of the Lamp? Or a volume within it?
Chuandenglu means "record of the transmission of lamp" and there are various collections that contain that title. Jingde is an era (1004–1007 AD) within Chinese history, and the Jingde Chandeng Lu itself was published in 1004, the first of its kind followed by several others.
What % of chan texts do you think are translated into English so far? What % are available on the internet in English do you think?
Perhaps about 5% of texts are available in English of the entire Chan corpus, but that percentage is significantly higher if we consider only the most important records attributed to Tang era masters. You can find a lot online of the English materials, but not everything.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by White Lotus »

If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness......you're on the verge of unbinding
in shikantaza there are periods where one becomes aware of having wandered off. this no mindfulness is part of shikantaza.

there is no mind to be mindful and yet there is seeing of things just as they are: there is a mind to be mindful, no-where any emptiness.
Nature and no nature is the eternal nature of nirvana
no mind, no nature: mind, nature. what you look for is what you find. the seeking mind in a way creates its own concepts by the very nature of its seeking.

anyway, all this is very conceptual. seeing is superior to the freedom of knowing.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by steve_bakr »

White Lotus wrote:
If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness......you're on the verge of unbinding

in shikantaza there are periods where one becomes aware of having wandered off. this no mindfulness is part of shikantaza.

there is no mind to be mindful and yet there is seeing of things just as they are: there is a mind to be mindful, no-where any emptiness.
Nature and no nature is the eternal nature of nirvana
no mind, no nature: mind, nature. what you look for is what you find. the seeking mind in a way creates its own concepts by the very nature of its seeking.

anyway, all this is very conceptual. seeing is superior to the freedom of knowing.

best wishes, Tom.
If I remember correctly--and I'm not sure I do--Ma-tsu would say to his students, "Mind is Buddha" or "Buddha is this mind." But to his advanced students, he would say, "There is no mind and no Buddha." Upon hearing this, one of his famous students, who became a Zen Master in his own right, said something like, "The old man can go on fooling people, but I will stick with "Buddha is mind." Upon hearing this, Ma-tsu said, "The plum is ripe."

I don't remember which Zen Master said the following--maybe Huang Po--but when asked, "What is Buddha-nature?", he replied, "It is your ordinary everyday mind." Regarding my own meditation practice, I have thought about this a lot, because I often seek the right state of mind. Whereas, this answer seems to suggest that there is no right or special state of mind. As soon as you seek it, you've gone far afield.

A saying of the Sixth Patriarch is appropos. Someone asked for instructions for attaining the enlightened state, and Hui Neng replied, "Let your mind flow as it normally does." So, is all the teaching and meditation simply "skillful means"--i.e., something to do--until we realize that there is no (enlightened) mind?

Yet surely there must be an "original"--i.e., undefiled--state of mind. I intuitively think so, and have had results from a slight variation of the instructions derived from a Koan: "Return to the state you were in before your grandparents were born." This is the original nature without all the toxic mental garbage. But perhaps that state can be called, "No-Mind" in the sense that our mind (lower case "m") is nothing other than the toxic garbage.

Of course, different Zen teachers used their own original terminology, and "mind" or "Mind" need to be seen in the context they are used in. That may range from there being "no mind at all" to the "mind is the "One Mind" of Huang Po. The seeming contradictory statements are not due to error but the different choices of terminology by different Zen Masters and--first and foremost--the needs and capacities of students in individual teaching situations.

It is hard to make hard and fast universal statements. A Zen Master might tell one student one thing and another student something totally different, according to each student's needs in the moment.

The original quotation of "understanding the mindfulness of no-mindfulness" may be suggesting that mindfulness is just another concept in which we create another mind in addition to the mind we already have, and attaching to that only further entangles us in the delusion we seek to be liberated from.
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by odysseus »

seeker242 wrote:
"If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness......you're on the verge of unbinding"
Some Chan or zen teacher said this once. I'm having trouble recalling who or where I heard it. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Maybe it was Hsuan Hua? Or, Shunryu Suzuki? But it was about more than just mindfulness. It also said something like "the enlightenment of no enlightenment" and maybe the "morality of no morality" or something similar. I don't remember exactly.

Was wondering if this sounds familiar to anyone? I think it was a contemporary teacher, not an ancient one. :smile:
Even if they are contemporary, these phrases are ancient. There are many similar phrases in Tibet also, but I don't have the exact words ATM.
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

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steve_bakr wrote:Yet surely there must be an "original"--i.e., undefiled--state of mind. I intuitively think so, and have had results from a slight variation of the instructions derived from a Koan: "Return to the state you were in before your grandparents were born." This is the original nature without all the toxic mental garbage. But perhaps that state can be called, "No-Mind" in the sense that our mind (lower case "m") is nothing other than the toxic garbage.
Any state of mind it be, it changes. Because it changes, it is unreliable. When it is seen that all states of mind are unreliable, one does not abide in any. That not abiding is what is sometimes called no mind. It is also the original mind, because mind changes all the time, no matter what, and it never abides in the same state for consecutive moments. That's also why trying to find a true mind, attempting to attain an ultimate state is actually pointless.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by steve_bakr »

Astus wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:Yet surely there must be an "original"--i.e., undefiled--state of mind. I intuitively think so, and have had results from a slight variation of the instructions derived from a Koan: "Return to the state you were in before your grandparents were born." This is the original nature without all the toxic mental garbage. But perhaps that state can be called, "No-Mind" in the sense that our mind (lower case "m") is nothing other than the toxic garbage.
Any state of mind it be, it changes. Because it changes, it is unreliable. When it is seen that all states of mind are unreliable, one does not abide in any. That not abiding is what is sometimes called no mind. It is also the original mind, because mind changes all the time, no matter what, and it never abides in the same state for consecutive moments. That's also why trying to find a true mind, attempting to attain an ultimate state is actually pointless.
Yes, perhaps "state" or "state of mind" are not the right words and I should adopt the perspective of "non-abiding." The actual Koan does not speak of any "state." It simply asks, "Before your parents were born, what was--i.e., is--your original nature?" Thanks for correcting my course of direction on that.
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by steve_bakr »

Astus wrote:
steve_bakr wrote:Yet surely there must be an "original"--i.e., undefiled--state of mind. I intuitively think so, and have had results from a slight variation of the instructions derived from a Koan: "Return to the state you were in before your grandparents were born." This is the original nature without all the toxic mental garbage. But perhaps that state can be called, "No-Mind" in the sense that our mind (lower case "m") is nothing other than the toxic garbage.
Any state of mind it be, it changes. Because it changes, it is unreliable. When it is seen that all states of mind are unreliable, one does not abide in any. That not abiding is what is sometimes called no mind. It is also the original mind, because mind changes all the time, no matter what, and it never abides in the same state for consecutive moments. That's also why trying to find a true mind, attempting to attain an ultimate state is actually pointless.
The Koan asks, "What is your original nature before your parents were born?" So that takes us back prior to our family history, prior to sense perceptions, prior to thoughts and feelings.

All that brings a flash of the unmediated immediacy of each moment right now where everything is done in unfiltered spontaneity, that is, direct, quicker than light because it is not slowed by, rumination, opinions, beliefs, or conditioning.

I have a question: Is the original nature prior to mind?

But that returns the original question.

A pointer would be helpful.

It is not localized so becomes Nothing and Everything, and myself.
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by Astus »

The question is from the 1st chapter of the Platform Sutra (It also appears as case 23 of Wumenguan.):

不思善,不思惡,正與麼時,那箇是明上座本來面目?惠明言下大悟。
‘Do not think of good, and do not think of evil. At just such a time, what is Elder Huiming’s original face?’ At these words, Huiming [experienced] a great enlightenment.

This extract from Daikaku's manual gives some clear explanations. The point is that when one is not caught by craving and hatred, one sees things just as they are. Seeing clearly is the original face, where experiences are not coloured by one's preconceptions and inclinations. It is not about a special experience - although in a sense it is special - but about discovering the defilements to be from one's ignorance of how the mind works.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

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Yet surely there must be an "original"--i.e., undefiled--state of mind. I intuitively think so, and have had results from a slight variation of the instructions derived from a Koan: "Return to the state you were in before your grandparents were born." This is the original nature without all the toxic mental garbage. But perhaps that state can be called, "No-Mind" in the sense that our mind (lower case "m") is nothing other than the toxic garbage.
We're producing defiled states of mind all the time. The same is true of confusion The point is to recognize the defiled as defiled and the confused as confused. Once clearly recognized, you see there is no point in continuing them, and they end, until you take them up again. What remains after defilement and confusion cease is your original, undefiled mind. There is nothing to produce or strive for, merely something to recognize and let go of.
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by steve_bakr »

Astus wrote:The question is from the 1st chapter of the Platform Sutra (It also appears as case 23 of Wumenguan.):

不思善,不思惡,正與麼時,那箇是明上座本來面目?惠明言下大悟。
‘Do not think of good, and do not think of evil. At just such a time, what is Elder Huiming’s original face?’ At these words, Huiming [experienced] a great enlightenment.

This extract from Daikaku's manual gives some clear explanations. The point is that when one is not caught by craving and hatred, one sees things just as they are. Seeing clearly is the original face, where experiences are not coloured by one's preconceptions and inclinations. It is not about a special experience - although in a sense it is special - but about discovering the defilements to be from one's ignorance of how the mind works.
I am relieved that I don't have to have a special experience. There are times when I see clearly but then question myself because that clarity was not accompanied by some kind of dramatic experience.
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Re: "If you can understand the mindfulness of no mindfulness

Post by umesh »

The best practice is by not practicing. How to be mindful when you are carrying it everywhere.
Seriously i don't know what i am doing and got no idea where i am heading.
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