What group is this?

remm
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What group is this?

Postby remm » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:04 am

Hello everyone,

I was browsing on Google and I stumbled across this Zen Buddhist group who call themselves the "Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun." Now, I'm not here to criticize or judge--but who are these people? They claim to be "ordained" monastics, but when I look at their teachers all I see are lay people.

They also claim that the Venerable Master Hsu Yun passed the patriarch mind seal down to their teacher "Jy Din Shakya" but we all know that Master Hsu Yun actually transmitted the lineage to the Venerable Master Hsuan Hua. I'm not understanding what is going on with this Buddhist order. Are they some sort of fraud group using the name of Master Hsu Yun to gain publicity?

I am going to apologize in advance if this post has offended anyone who is following this group. I'm just reading the things on their website, and a whole lot of it just doesn't seem authentic at all.

Edit: Sorry, it probably would've helped if I posted the link at first. Here it is: http://www.hsuyun.org/chan/en/clergy.html
Last edited by remm on Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

remm
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Re: What group is this?

Postby remm » Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:12 am

I also want to add that I have the biography of Master Hsu Yun composed by Charles Luk as well as the chinese & vietnamese online composition of Master Hsu Yun's life and I have never once heard of anyone named "Jy Din Shakya." There is a part in his biography where there are several monastics that Master Hsu Yun mentions or acknowledges to be his close disciples, but I have never seen Master Hsu Yun mention Jy Din Shakya at all, this is what also makes me a bit weary.

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Astus
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Re: What group is this?

Postby Astus » Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:54 pm

Master Xuyun is regarded a major teacher in modern Chinese Buddhism so it is simply natural that a large number of teachers claim to be descendants of him. Master Xuanhua was just one of the many. I don't know if Jy Din Shakya's (or the ZBOHY's) claims are true or not. Actually, how could I affirm or deny anyone's claim without having direct access to Xuyun's notes (if there are any), or using other reliable methods for historical investigation? But this part is not really a problem I think, people and groups like to establish their authority and orthodoxy in whatever ways they see appropriate.

As for the nature of that community, it looks like a group of Western people who practice a form of Buddhism, but in a not so traditional way. Their idea of being a "married monk" or "lay monk" is very much like in Japanese Buddhism, probably there's a relationship between them, at least in concept.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

remm
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Re: What group is this?

Postby remm » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:10 pm

I don't know if Jy Din Shakya's (or the ZBOHY's) claims are true or not. Actually, how could I affirm or deny anyone's claim without having direct access to Xuyun's notes (if there are any), or using other reliable methods for historical investigation?


Astus,

Maybe I can scan the picture of the letter that Master Xu Yun wrote himself to present to the Ven. Master Hsuan Hua as his lineage successor. But for now here is a translation of the letter.

Proclaiming (Hsuan) Wei's wonderful meaning
causes the Lineage's teaching to be echoed far and wide.
The transformation (Hua) inherited from Mt.Ling exalt the Dharma path.
Taking across (Du) the forty sixth, The mind seal is transmitted.
The wheel (Lun) revolves unceasingly, rescuing all the living beings.


Written by De Qing Hsu Yun to be presented to Du Lun Hsuan Hua.

And like I mentioned earliar, if you have a copy of Charles Luk's biography on the Ven. Master Hsu Yun, he will note that there is a great Master named Du Lun Hsuan Hua who the Ven. Master Hsu Yun passes the lineage to.

I also realize that there are many claims from many places that Master Hsu Yun has passed down the lineage to so and so, but there isn't actually any solid evidence. They don't provide the letter of transmission for us to see.

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Astus
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Re: What group is this?

Postby Astus » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:35 pm

Dear Remm,

No need to scan anything, on this page everyone can see the whole thing. But then, would you say that Ven. Xuyun's transmission of the Linji lineage that have been received eventually through two masters by Ven. Shengyan is fake? Also, an interesting thing about Ven. Xuanhua's lineage of the Guiyang school is that it is a broken lineage, simply because the Guiyang transmission has died out about a thousand years ago. The transmission paper featured on that site shows it very well too. On the other hand, Ven. Shengyan's Linji lineage (see here) looks unbroken - even if it is historically very much questionable at a couple of points, just as every Chan lineage. By the way, just because Ven. Xuanhua's transmission line is broken doesn't mean it's fake or anything like that, I don't mean to question any of the involved teachers' integrity. But then, weren't you trying to find out the nature of the ZBOHY group? Sorry if I've caused any distraction with my chit-chat about lineages and stuff. Although the whole concept of transmission might be relevant in evaluating groups and claims of orthodoxy.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

remm
Posts: 125
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:09 pm

Re: What group is this?

Postby remm » Sat Sep 04, 2010 1:08 am

Astus wrote:Dear Remm,

No need to scan anything, on this page everyone can see the whole thing. But then, would you say that Ven. Xuyun's transmission of the Linji lineage that have been received eventually through two masters by Ven. Shengyan is fake? Also, an interesting thing about Ven. Xuanhua's lineage of the Guiyang school is that it is a broken lineage, simply because the Guiyang transmission has died out about a thousand years ago. The transmission paper featured on that site shows it very well too. On the other hand, Ven. Shengyan's Linji lineage (see here) looks unbroken - even if it is historically very much questionable at a couple of points, just as every Chan lineage. By the way, just because Ven. Xuanhua's transmission line is broken doesn't mean it's fake or anything like that, I don't mean to question any of the involved teachers' integrity. But then, weren't you trying to find out the nature of the ZBOHY group? Sorry if I've caused any distraction with my chit-chat about lineages and stuff. Although the whole concept of transmission might be relevant in evaluating groups and claims of orthodoxy.


I'm sorry, my post has been a bit confusing. I am not going to question the authenticity of ZBOHY. I am not knowledgeable enough on the lineages of Ch`an either, so it is best if I don't question any of this, it may lead to slander of great elder Masters. For all I know, Jy Ding could have been a Dharma heir from the Elder Master Hsu Yun. I guess what took me by surprise was when looked at their clergy. Anyway, it doesn't even matter. I'm not sure if they follow vinaya carefully or not, but if they are proclaiming the doctrines of Buddhism and have something good to offer to the lay community, then I should not disrupt their sangha. My apologies.

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Lazy_eye
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Re: What group is this?

Postby Lazy_eye » Sat Sep 04, 2010 4:29 am

One of their members, Fa Dao, posts regularly at Zen Forum International. If you'd like to know more about his community and its lineage/history, you could try catching up with him there.

yoxin
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Re: What group is this?

Postby yoxin » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:26 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm a Zen priest of the Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun (at zatma.org) and one of my students just sent me a link to this forum thread about the founder of our order, Jy Din Shakya.

This thread is very old and I'm sure most people who wrote on it don't care anymore but I thought I might add some factual information for future reader, as Dharmawheel forum is such a reference in the Buddhist world (at least that's what my student told me :smile: ).

Nothing will never be found about him under the name Jydin Shakya, JyDin is his novices name, the one he liked to be called by his close disciples. But his master name was Shi Wei Miao Jy Din. He insisted to use shakya in his name, as all our priests do in the order, because it means that we are children of shakyamuni (Shi is generally seen in China as meaning venerable and the shakyamuni reference is often forgotten nowadays). As the Wei name suggests he was a direct heir of master Hsu Yun in the Linji Lineage. He even was the Abbot of Huineng's Nanhua Monastery. He even was the one who ordained Shi Wei Yin (very famous later abbot and reformer of NanHua Monastery) in the name of master Hsu Yun who was staying at the North of China at the time. Master Jy Din was in fact a personal assistant and translator of master Hsu Yun in Southern China. He assisted master Hsu Yun and helped him to rebuilt Nanhua monastery with master Shi Wei Yin and was a very good friend of YunMen monastery Abbot, Shi Fo Yuan.

He founded our order in November 1997 or 1998 (don't remember well sorry), as a semi-conventual Zen Order. As some of you have noticed it is an order for Westerners, largely influenced by Japanese Zen Orders. He thought that it was needed to adapt Chan to the reality of Westerners. This is also why we are fully ordained as Zen PRIESTS and NOT MONKS, we don't take full Vinaya vows. We could say that we are a reformed Sino-American Chan Order. Just like master Soen Sahn was a reformer of Korean Buddhism (I hope the analogy is right I'm not a specialist of Korean Buddhism).

What is funny is that, at first, the Chinese Buddhist Association approved the creation of the Order and his first abbot was received and ordained with great honor in mainland china by Great Master Ben Hua. China had some big expectations for this experience of Western Priests under the patronage of Chinese Great Masters. Unfortunately, after Master Wei Miao JyDin passing in 2003, the Order finally split in two groups ( zatma.org and eyeofchan.org) and the Chinese Buddhist Association lost both interest and influence in both of them.

Today, the two parts of the order are both legit and full of Master Jy Din's heirs but they have no relation at all between them.

Here is a small biography of Master Wei Miao Jy Din I wrote years ago, I hope it will help those in search of factual information about master Wei Miao Jy Din:

Master Ji Dyn was quite young when he met master Hsu-Yun for the first time. He lived near the monastery of the 6th patriarch (NanHua), master Huineng, and had the habit to go there on visit. At that time, the monastery was partly in ruins and both Taoist and Buddhists monks and nuns used to live, and argue, on the monastery ground.
He first met master Hsu-Yun at Nan Hua monastery as an adolescent and received ordination from him at the age of 20. For several years he served as the great master interpreter trough the country, as the master gave incessant talks in these difficult times. He also spent several years studying Chan and making pilgrimage before coming back to Nan Hua monastery were he has helped master Hsu-Yun regulating the monastery ground, schools, and offices. As Master Hsu-Yun went to rebuilt the YunMen monastery and re-establish the YunMen Lineage, Master Jy Din became the head monk of Nan Hua monastery and and a committee member of the Chinese Buddhist Association.

The war was at his highest and, long story short, Master Hsu Yun and Master Jy Din went to Hong Kong because of the highly dangerous situation. There Master Jy Din received the invitation of the Chinese immigrant community from Honolulu, Hawai, to come share the Dharma in Hawai. Having received the approval of master Hsu-Yun, by the famous and simple saying: “Go spread the Dharma to the West”, he and his disciples arranged everything to go to Hawai.

In Hawai, with the Chinese Buddhist Association of Hawai, he founded what was to become the first Chan Buddhist Temple in the West. In honor of his great master, it was humbly named “Hsu-Yun Si”, the Temple of Hsu-Yun.

In order to help “spread the Dharma to the West”, he founded (with the help of the founders of the “Nan Hua Buddhist Society”, namely Ming Zhen Shakya formerly Chuan Yuan Shakya, and his young disciple Chuan Zhi Shakya) in 1998 the “ZEN BUDDHIST ORDER OF HSU-YUN”, a semi-monastic order of Western priests, to disseminate the Chan teachings and practices of Master Hsu-Yun to Westerners . This order has been the first Buddhist Order partially based on the Internet, and exist to this day.

(Since Master Jy Din passing in 2003, as a lot of “families”, the order split in two different orders, both keeping the same name but remaining totally unrelated).


Anyway, I hope all this will help people who wanted to know who master Jy Din Shakya was and what this Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun was all about.

Humbly,
Yao Xin Shakya,
zatma.org
dharmawindszensangha.org
ps: I apologyze in advance for any misspelling or error in this message, english is not my primary language and I'm not an historian of our Order. But I hope this message will have the advantage to clarify the shadows around Jy Din and the order. Please note that this message wasn't meant to be apologetical or proselytizing but only informational.

ChuanYi
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Joined: Mon May 15, 2017 2:59 pm

Re: What group is this?

Postby ChuanYi » Mon May 15, 2017 3:13 pm

Greetings,
I noticed this post today as well and decided to comment.
The above information about the order and Jy Din, is accurate; my only clarification is the order was founded in 1997.
Previous to the order being founded, the sangha was served by Ming Zhen Shakya, of blessed memory, of the Nan Hua Buddhist Society in Las Vegas, Nevada. I was given the precepts by Ming Zhen (then Chuan Yuan) in 1993.
Thank you for contributing this information.

Chuan Yi Shakya, ZBOHY (Ordained August 15, 1998, at Hsu Yun Temple by Jy Din Shakya)
Troy, Idaho USA


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