Intellectualization

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Astus
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by Astus » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:53 pm

jundo cohen wrote:Now you got it!
What makes you say that? I certainly did not get anything.

How can you expect keeping Zen in the Zen forum if you don't specify what Zen is?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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jundo cohen
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by jundo cohen » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:Way too much meta-discussion going on here...
DHA asked, I simply responded respectfully.

Gassho, Jundo
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:56 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Way too much meta-discussion going on here...
DHA asked, I simply responded respectfully.

Gassho, Jundo
Check the TOS.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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jundo cohen
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by jundo cohen » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:59 pm

Astus wrote:
How can you expect keeping Zen in the Zen forum if you don't specify what Zen is?
Well, ya know, they say that everything is Zen, so theoretically one can talk here about baseball, politics, leaky sink fixing. Jesus and the Beverly Hills Housewives ... all "Zen".

But it probably means (with a few grayish areas) folks who follow, seek to practice and have trust in the teachings of Soto/Caodong or Rinzai/Linji lines, much as "Nichiren" Buddhism means folks who are trusting, seek to practice and follow the teachings of Nichiren.

Gassho, J
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:02 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
Astus wrote:
How can you expect keeping Zen in the Zen forum if you don't specify what Zen is?
Well, ya know, they say that everything is Zen, so theoretically one can talk here about baseball, politics, leaky sink fixing. Jesus and the Beverly Hills Housewives ... all "Zen".

But it probably means (with a few grayish areas) folks who follow and have trust in the teachings of Soto/Caodong or Rinzai/lLinji lines, much as "Nichiren" Buddhism means folks who are trusting and following the teachings of Nichiren.

Gassho, J
It is very simple. Chan/Zen is those traditions that lay claim to being heirs and preservers of the teachings of Bodhidharma and his followers. We dont need a metadiscussion to understand this much.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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jundo cohen
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by jundo cohen » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
It is very simple. Chan/Zen is those traditions that lay claim to being heirs and preservers of the teachings of Bodhidharma and his followers. We dont need a metadiscussion to understand this much.
I believe you are now engaging in meta-discussion. :tongue: :hug:

Gassho, J
Priest/Teacher at Treeleaf Zendo, a Soto Zen Sangha. Treeleaf Zendo was designed as an online practice place for Zen practitioners who cannot easily commute to a Zen Center due to health concerns, living in remote areas, or work, childcare and family needs, and seeks to provide Zazen sittings, retreats, discussion, interaction with a teacher, and all other activities of a Zen Buddhist Sangha, all fully online. The focus is Shikantaza "Just Sitting" Zazen as instructed by the 13th Century Japanese Master, Eihei Dogen. http://www.treeleaf.org

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Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:24 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
It is very simple. Chan/Zen is those traditions that lay claim to being heirs and preservers of the teachings of Bodhidharma and his followers. We dont need a metadiscussion to understand this much.
I believe you are now engaging in meta-discussion. :tongue: :hug:

Gassho, J
I had this reply in mind, as well as the posts to which you are replying.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p333127

[metadiscussion on]

It frankly gets a bit boring to watch you unnecessarily defending the Zen forums from "invasions." If there is a problem in the Zen forums, hit the report button, and let the mods sort it out. [metadiscussion off]
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Location: Budapest

Re: Intellectualization

Post by Astus » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:30 pm

jundo cohen wrote:the teachings of Soto/Caodong or Rinzai/Linji lines
Malcolm wrote:Chan/Zen is ... the teachings of Bodhidharma and his followers
So, Zen is a set of teachings. Discussion of those teachings is the primary purpose of the Zen section on this forum. That is quite an intellectual activity. And since this topic, like the others, discusses Zen teachings, there is no lack of it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:11 pm

jundo cohen wrote:
Instead what you are doing is drowning Zen teachings in some beautiful, but not-Zen at all, teachings and expressions, and Zen folks like Dharmagoat and me get stamped down. Here, in "Zen", I am happy to talk to Meido about Zen (respectfully agreeing to disagree sometimes), but I would not charge into the Rinzai Section and tell him why I think he is a old shavepate :tongue: and Dogen thought his Ancestors were full of gas etc.

Instead of discussing Zen here, how about we take it outside to Open Forum? Then, let's talk, debate, challenge anything! (Respectfully) no holds barred (within the TOS and Right Speech)

Gassho, Jundo
Please read this post:


http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p333315

Written by a contemporary Tibetan Khenpo, who fluent in Chinese, also seems to be very expert in Chan.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Intellectualization

Post by Kim O'Hara » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:20 am

Jundo Chohen, one of the more active contributors to this thread, has left DW. The discussion can continue without him, of course, but don't expect him to reply.
OT posts - mostly about Jundo's departure - have been removed.
Discussion of Jundo's departure is OT here and will be removed as per the announcement at http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22450

:namaste:
Kim

:focus:

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