Thoughts and impulses

makewhisper
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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by makewhisper » Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:20 pm

Time to go practice. Can't say how much I appreciate all the guidance you've provided, Astus. I'm admittedly a beginner, so I'm still learning the Dharma and working these things out without a teacher. Thanks again. :anjali:
ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ
Oṃ Āḥ Hūṃ
Om Ah Hung

"Whilst lacking pure renunciation there is no way to pacify
The continual thirst for pleasure in the ocean of saṃsāra,
And since all living beings are bound by their craving for existence,
You must begin by finding the determination to be free."

[from Je Tsongkhapa's Three Principal Aspects of the Path]

Matylda
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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:38 pm

Astus wrote:
As for my comments on the quoted instructions, they are not criticisms of Maezumi at all. Or do you think it is inappropriate and unseemly to talk about teachings?
Well it is about possible misinterpretation, not about criticism...

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Astus » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:47 pm

Matylda wrote:it is about possible misinterpretation, not about criticism...
Misinterpretation is possible even between close friends. But if you can read a different meaning in the quoted text, I'd be happy to read it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Matylda
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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:51 am

Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:it is about possible misinterpretation, not about criticism...
Misinterpretation is possible even between close friends. But if you can read a different meaning in the quoted text, I'd be happy to read it.
Yes I thought about it.. but did not decide yet. Two reasons for this. 1. I really do not want to get engaged too much in such things. However I did already for some sake. 2. I have really big family and have to take care of them. And specially now there is a lot of work with kids. So i have to wait for the moment when I will have more free time, and then I will be able to write carefully.. so maybe today or tomorrow. Sorry for delay.

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:39 am

1.

What does it mean to be one with the sound? That there is no observing it, no judging it, no letting go of it, no perpetuating it, there is just the sound without any relation created with it. This is achieved through concentration, through wilful focus on a single object, until only that one thing is left and everything else is forgotten.

Well it does not have anyting to do with concentration.. but this is part belongs to properly transmitted teacher's instructions, keypoints and other pointers... concentration itself is antithesis of zazen.. it includes division of subject object and action itself.. what does it have to do with zazen..? therefore there is no achievment by following the method of concentration. It will lead to tension, exhaustion dispair and frustration in most cases. In extreme cases it may lead to serious illness, or inbalance of body-mind which are difficult to treat... if you look at repertoriums of Chinese medical manuals you may find descriptions of such cases. Or it leads to mundane samadhi, or power of concentration based on dualism which includes 3 elements, therefore it even more than dualisic meditation.. This in turn is even more dangerous since for an inexperiencesd meditator may lead to false image of gaining 'kensho' 'enlightenment' or even ,nirvana'. Look at shizen biku in Shobogenzo... or some instructions on false samadhis.. however it is more difficult without personal contact with zen teacher. In buddhist writings one may look at this genre represented for example by one chapter of Surangama on misinterpretation of samadhi, and meditation experience in general... However it is all in all as far from zazen as heaven from earth. As Dogen wrote zazen is a dharmagate of ease and bliss...

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Astus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:20 pm

Matylda wrote:Well it does not have anyting to do with concentration.
So you think that Maezumi is teaching something that's wrong and should not call it shikantaza?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:01 pm

Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:Well it does not have anyting to do with concentration.
So you think that Maezumi is teaching something that's wrong and should not call it shikantaza?
No he did not teach in this sense wrong.. I related the passage to your comment, nothing else. You wanted me to write about misinterpretation, so it is what I did.

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Astus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:06 pm

Matylda wrote:No he did not teach in this sense wrong.. I related the passage to your comment, nothing else. You wanted me to write about misinterpretation, so it is what I did.
I see. And how does that differ from what is found in Maezumi's instructions? He seems to talk about concentration. What do you think it is actually about?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Matylda
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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:35 pm

Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:No he did not teach in this sense wrong.. I related the passage to your comment, nothing else. You wanted me to write about misinterpretation, so it is what I did.
I see. And how does that differ from what is found in Maezumi's instructions? He seems to talk about concentration. What do you think it is actually about?
Yes.. please give me exact quote from Roshi's writting which you are referring to.

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Astus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 5:38 pm

Matylda wrote:Yes.. please give me exact quote from Roshi's writting which you are referring to.
It was posted here by makewhisper that I have commented to.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Matylda
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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:12 pm

Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:Yes.. please give me exact quote from Roshi's writting which you are referring to.
It was posted here by makewhisper that I have commented to.
Then I think I answered it while ago. Concentration is not zazen. Anyway in English translation of Maezumi there is nothing about wilful concentration etc.
The main difference is between conditioned sort of meditation, and zazen which finally is what is not conditioned. Maybe it may become clearer in another post.. I did not send it yet. Soon will do.

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:17 pm

Generally concentration is totally invalid term in English concerning zazen..

This is the shift from maintaining the object of concentration to simply maintaining the concentration, the state of mind. It could be said that here one moves from rupa-dhyana to arupa-dhyana.

Then it has nothing to do with zazen at all. It is rather false interpretation of abhidharma aproach to zazen, what means great confusion. It stays in the realm of makyo altogether, concerning 'good experineces' in immature kind of zazen or just it is not zazen at all, sometimes it could be based on wrong idea of individual or corrupt instruction. Zazen has nothing to do with those kind of things. Neither koan, nor shikan taza, nor breathing nor counting is kept in the realm of extremes of the 3 worlds.. Even if meditator still stays in them it does not mean that the key instructions may go along with that kind of meditation... You cannot cure one who is sick mentally from hilarious illusions or deep illusions by perpetuating those illusions.. I do not know if the example is good one or not, but in summery – zazen does not belong to the dhyanas of the 3 worlds, neither kamaloka, nor rupadhatu nor arupadhatu... those are mere makyo... concentration is straight way to such achievments.

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Astus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:23 pm

Matylda wrote:Concentration is not zazen.
We agree on that.
Anyway in English translation of Maezumi there is nothing about wilful concentration etc.
So how do you interpret this line?

"When you hear a sound, instead of remaining outside of it, and thereby fighting it, just become that sound yourself."

And then the second stage?

"But there still remains the dharma, the object. So next, empty that too! Again, by really being thus, you become unaware of even being thus."

What I read there is an instruction for concentration practice, not shikantaza.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:29 pm

Astus wrote:
Matylda wrote:Concentration is not zazen.
We agree on that.
Anyway in English translation of Maezumi there is nothing about wilful concentration etc.
So how do you interpret this line?

"When you hear a sound, instead of remaining outside of it, and thereby fighting it, just become that sound yourself."

And then the second stage?

"But there still remains the dharma, the object. So next, empty that too! Again, by really being thus, you become unaware of even being thus."

What I read there is an instruction for concentration practice, not shikantaza.
Definitely not...

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:33 pm

Therefore farther it goes:

I think those are too big words. What was described was a temporary experience of calmness.

Really? Is that so? Experience of calmness has nothing to do with great death etc. What Roshi is describing here is realisation of true enlightenment. What for to make from it just unimportant 'experience'. Anyway Roshi talks here about the realm of realisation, not about calmness of mind. Then look what samadhi he has described does have to do with concentration? He is using Hakuin's great death and Dogen's dropping body and mind as synonyms of enlightenment to explain the final result of unfolding enlightenment.. what for making it just shallow kind of 'temporary' 'calmness'? He is not talking about experience but about realisation. And again he clearly says that it 'transcends' limited consciousness. Right? It is what I meant about freedom from any conditioning.

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Astus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:46 pm

Matylda wrote:Definitely not...
Why not? What does it mean then?
Anyway Roshi talks here about the realm of realisation, not about calmness of mind. ... He is using Hakuin's great death and Dogen's dropping body and mind as synonyms of enlightenment to explain the final result of unfolding enlightenment. ... And again he clearly says that it 'transcends' limited consciousness. Right?
He talks of two stages. First by "becoming the sound" one loses the self. Then, in some unspecified manner, one has to lose the object as well.

Does shikantaza have two stages? I have not heard of such a thing yet. And if there are no two stages in shikantaza, how could it be what is talked about here?

What is it to "become the sound"? Did Dogen teach such a thing? Or anyone else?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:00 pm

"When you hear a sound, instead of remaining outside of it, and thereby fighting it, just become that sound yourself."

this is realisation of selflessness, or optiness of person or subject
one gives up all conditioning of the grasping self.. then you are the sound itself

"But there still remains the dharma, the object. So next, empty that too! Again, by really being thus, you become unaware of even being thus."

This is realisation of emptiness of object.. in deep realisation of selflessness you realise finally nature of all phenomena..

Then one attains complete enlightenment, not only selflessness of person.. Yes in zen teachnigs in Japan it is described in this way.
and this is Dogen's dropping of body and mind.. and this is shikna taza. Teachings of Shikan taza as it is popular in the West concerning sitting came in the XX century.. it was work of Sawaki Kodo.. but none of his teachers like Bokusan, Akino Kodo or Oka Sotan described it Sawaki's way.. it was rather based on his personal experience.

I have to stop for today... there is work ahead of me..

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:05 pm

Astus wrote: He talks of two stages. First by "becoming the sound" one loses the self. Then, in some unspecified manner, one has to lose the object as well.

Does shikantaza have two stages? I have not heard of such a thing yet. And if there are no two stages in shikantaza, how could it be what is talked about here?
unspecified manner - no, it is in samadhi of selflessness it is not unspecified

shikan taza contains this 'double' realisation of selflessness of subject and object.. Roshi does not specify time for the realisation of one and then another ...it may even come within seconds.. but between both are tons of oral and not oral instruction... for some people it takes a little bit longer, but it is work of teacher, and reserved only for realised one so not for me.

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:22 pm

Astus wrote:
Does shikantaza have two stages? I have not heard of such a thing yet. And if there are no two stages in shikantaza, how could it be what is talked about here?

What is it to "become the sound"? Did Dogen teach such a thing? Or anyone else?
Two stages are in postion of madhyamaka of Nagarjuna, who was one of most respected examples for Dogen..

Of course teaching on becoming the sound or any other phenomena were present in soto teachings ever since... even Keizan talked about it, relating his enlightenmnet to accident of the sound of the wooden floor at midnight while doing zazen.. just there was anonymous passer by...

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Re: Thoughts and impulses

Post by Matylda » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:33 pm

Astus wrote: What is it to "become the sound"? Did Dogen teach such a thing? Or anyone else?
Look at KEISEISANSHOKU - SOUND OF THE VALLEY...

Dogen speaks about this kind of realisation using Sotoba example...

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