Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Dgj
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Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Dgj » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:16 pm

I realize this may sound absurd but I was thinking that if one totally forgot duality and nonduality then one would be practicing Zen.

So instead of eating my soup where I eat my soup, and there is a great duality between my soup and I, I would just eat my soup.

And likewise instead of eating my soup where I am my soup, and there is no duality between my soup and I, I would just eat my soup.

Is there any such school or teaching out there? A firm soup eating school? Where there is only the soup and no further teaching or implications?
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:25 pm

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Dgj
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Dgj » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:29 am

Thanks, seems like a potentially good book but not exactly what I am looking for.
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:24 am

Dgj wrote:Where there is only the soup and no further teaching or implications?
It's at:

7952 SE 13th Ave
Portland, OR, 97202
USA

there are some other places, but if you want to stop at soup, here's your answer

Dgj
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Dgj » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:45 am

There was a Far Side comic years ago called "The Four Basic Personality Types". In it were four people, each with a partially full glass in front of them.

Person one says "The glass is half full!"

Person two says "The glass is half empty."

Person three says "Half full. No! wait! Half empty!... No, half... What was the question?"

Person four says "Hey! I ordered a cheeseburger!"
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

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seeker242
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:19 am

Yes, all of them teach only soup. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:21 am

Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Dgj
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Dgj » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:40 am

seeker242 wrote:Yes, all of them teach only soup. :smile:
That was always my assumption but I spent a year intensively practicing at a temple and there was constant allusion to nonduality, oneness, and such concepts that felt very dogmatic and like we had lost the soup in favor of scriptural and philosophical concepts.

There was some of the Zen I had known from reading but the teacher always went back to basic Mahayana concepts and dogmatism instead of cutting through everything, as Zen is typically known to do. Even when he did keep with the Zen that cuts through everything he still would imply or infer the same dogmatic concepts.

In my study of Zen solely from books I suppose I had completely ignored all dogmatism and focused entirley on the soup to the point that I didn't even realize there was so much dogma and philosophizing involved. So much that I saw all references to these things as frame work to push one towards the soup and I was greatly pained to have this experience under a teacher.

So after this I am under the assumption that there is a Zen that cuts through everything but that certainly not all schools and teachers teach this and am wondering if any specifically do?
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Matylda » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:20 am

Dgj wrote:
seeker242 wrote:Yes, all of them teach only soup. :smile:
That was always my assumption but I spent a year intensively practicing at a temple and there was constant allusion to nonduality, oneness, and such concepts that felt very dogmatic and like we had lost the soup in favor of scriptural and philosophical concepts.

There was some of the Zen I had known from reading but the teacher always went back to basic Mahayana concepts and dogmatism instead of cutting through everything, as Zen is typically known to do. Even when he did keep with the Zen that cuts through everything he still would imply or infer the same dogmatic concepts.

In my study of Zen solely from books I suppose I had completely ignored all dogmatism and focused entirley on the soup to the point that I didn't even realize there was so much dogma and philosophizing involved. So much that I saw all references to these things as frame work to push one towards the soup and I was greatly pained to have this experience under a teacher.

So after this I am under the assumption that there is a Zen that cuts through everything but that certainly not all schools and teachers teach this and am wondering if any specifically do?

where did you spend this one year???

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seeker242
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by seeker242 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:03 am

Dgj wrote:So much that I saw all references to these things as frame work to push one towards the soup and I was greatly pained to have this experience under a teacher.
Did you confront the teacher about this? After all, that's what dharma combat is for. :smile:
So after this I am under the assumption that there is a Zen that cuts through everything but that certainly not all schools and teachers teach this and am wondering if any specifically do?
I don't know. I don't consider concepts to be "dogmatic" to begin with. They're just concepts.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:15 am

Dgj wrote:
seeker242 wrote:Yes, all of them teach only soup. :smile:
That was always my assumption but I spent a year intensively practicing at a temple and there was constant allusion to nonduality, oneness, and such concepts that felt very dogmatic and like we had lost the soup in favor of scriptural and philosophical concepts.

There was some of the Zen I had known from reading but the teacher always went back to basic Mahayana concepts and dogmatism instead of cutting through everything, as Zen is typically known to do. Even when he did keep with the Zen that cuts through everything he still would imply or infer the same dogmatic concepts.

In my study of Zen solely from books I suppose I had completely ignored all dogmatism and focused entirley on the soup to the point that I didn't even realize there was so much dogma and philosophizing involved. So much that I saw all references to these things as frame work to push one towards the soup and I was greatly pained to have this experience under a teacher.

So after this I am under the assumption that there is a Zen that cuts through everything but that certainly not all schools and teachers teach this and am wondering if any specifically do?
Ignoring what you refuse to understand is a form of dogmatism.

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Matylda » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:19 am

DGA wrote:
Dgj wrote:
seeker242 wrote:Yes, all of them teach only soup. :smile:
That was always my assumption but I spent a year intensively practicing at a temple and there was constant allusion to nonduality, oneness, and such concepts that felt very dogmatic and like we had lost the soup in favor of scriptural and philosophical concepts.

There was some of the Zen I had known from reading but the teacher always went back to basic Mahayana concepts and dogmatism instead of cutting through everything, as Zen is typically known to do. Even when he did keep with the Zen that cuts through everything he still would imply or infer the same dogmatic concepts.

In my study of Zen solely from books I suppose I had completely ignored all dogmatism and focused entirley on the soup to the point that I didn't even realize there was so much dogma and philosophizing involved. So much that I saw all references to these things as frame work to push one towards the soup and I was greatly pained to have this experience under a teacher.

So after this I am under the assumption that there is a Zen that cuts through everything but that certainly not all schools and teachers teach this and am wondering if any specifically do?
Ignoring what you refuse to understand is a form of dogmatism.

so which temple was so dogmatic?

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Astus » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:15 pm

Dgj wrote:if one totally forgot duality and nonduality then one would be practicing Zen.
That is an assumption based on what?
Where there is only the soup and no further teaching or implications?
It seems you already know all you want to know. Why look for more?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Dgj
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Dgj » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:28 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Dgj wrote:So much that I saw all references to these things as frame work to push one towards the soup and I was greatly pained to have this experience under a teacher.
Did you confront the teacher about this? After all, that's what dharma combat is for. :smile:
So after this I am under the assumption that there is a Zen that cuts through everything but that certainly not all schools and teachers teach this and am wondering if any specifically do?
I don't know. I don't consider concepts to be "dogmatic" to begin with. They're just concepts.
Yes, I politely explained my opinion and it didn't help so I moved on.
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

Dgj
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Dgj » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:08 pm

Okay I am clearly mistaken. I have experienced enough religions with highly systematized and rigid doctrines for this life time. If there is only one way to understand Zen and I am incorrect for assuming otherwise then I concede that those implying this are correct and I will simply give up and go eat my soup. Thank you all for your words.
I wish I knew what I was talking about but, let's face it, I probably don't.

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Luke
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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Luke » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:35 am

If you want soup in a Zen context, then just practice oriyoki at lunch time with a Soto Zen group! Although you will only have soup in one bowl, you will have a total of 3 bowls to play with! :D hehe
Oriyoki is also an important "team" activity: you can't just follow your own desires; you have to do each part of the eating ritual at approximately the same time as the others do. Oriyoki is about gratitude, teamwork, and our dependence on others. I hope you will get a chance to try it sometime. :)

Soup is wonderful, but if you get so attached to your own views, then even soup can bring suffering! lol

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by Jeff H » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:03 pm

Wonderful story. Marvelous drawings!

This has been a delightful little thread.
:group:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:28 pm

Dgj wrote:
Yes, I politely explained my opinion and it didn't help so I moved on.
When you say it didn't help, what do you mean? what happened, more specifically?
Matylda wrote:so which temple was so dogmatic?
???

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by DGA » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:31 pm

Dgj wrote:Okay I am clearly mistaken. I have experienced enough religions with highly systematized and rigid doctrines for this life time. If there is only one way to understand Zen and I am incorrect for assuming otherwise then I concede that those implying this are correct and I will simply give up and go eat my soup. Thank you all for your words.
This is called either-or thinking, or a false dilemma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

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Re: Are there any Zen schools that teach only soup?

Post by boda » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:35 pm

Zen is chicken soup for the no-self.

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