Sudden Enlightenment

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Tao
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby Tao » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:39 am

I think I clearly answer to the question (always IMHO) that opened the thread. Its enough.

Thank you for your time too, Astus.

Best regards

====

>To my deficient understanding it seems the picture painted of sudden enlightenment was that a teacher could spur a student into awakening with words and deeds, and today we practice sitting in meditation on records of those words and deeds, instead of being spurred into awakening by a teacher's words and deeds alone, as it would seem Shenhui would have preferred.
>Clearly I have misconstrued something. What am I missing?

You're missing nothing, you'r right and that kind of zen was totally lost, probably because of the lack of teachers able to do that...

dreambow
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby dreambow » Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:58 am

Astus, 'The mind, just like everything else, is empty as it is. It is not made empty by any method or practice. As for awareness, it is a basic function of the conditioned mind" If I'm quiet and can hear the birds, my mind does not need to focus on the sounds. I can hear what is going on around me without labelling, labouring or needing to modify the awareness. It's just so. Nothing needs to be added or taken away from what is. If one appears to be momentarily unaware its because the thoughts/emotions are veiling the awareness but awareness is still there.

White Lotus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:35 pm

How do you see the mountain Astus?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Astus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby Astus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:54 pm

dreambow wrote:If I'm quiet and can hear the birds, my mind does not need to focus on the sounds. I can hear what is going on around me without labelling, labouring or needing to modify the awareness. It's just so. Nothing needs to be added or taken away from what is. If one appears to be momentarily unaware its because the thoughts/emotions are veiling the awareness but awareness is still there.


A piece of rock do not and cannot make any effort. One does not have to nor can one make oneself hungry or thirsty, they occur nevertheless. That doesn't make any of that unconditioned.

Sensing what is going around is not any less illusory without labelling and paying attention. Happening is itself a process, all processes occur in time, and time is found only as a conventional concept. To put special importance on peaceful observation is grasping at an artificially elevated idea of calmness.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby Astus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:57 pm

White Lotus wrote:How do you see the mountain Astus?


Proverbial.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

dreambow
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby dreambow » Mon Jan 02, 2017 1:19 pm

"To put special importance on peaceful observation" You have to ask 'who is the observer?' and stay quiet, no expectations but we are still aware.

White Lotus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:57 pm

In the gradual; unfolding of prajna is "experiential". At different levels the mountain is seen differently. What does the sudden mean by saying the mountain is "proverbial"? Is nothing experienced other than things just as they are? What does the proverb mean?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby Astus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:07 pm

White Lotus wrote:In the gradual; unfolding of prajna is "experiential". At different levels the mountain is seen differently. What does the sudden mean by saying the mountain is "proverbial"? Is nothing experienced other than things just as they are? What does the proverb mean?


Here is the proverb:

Chan teacher Qingyuan Weixin of Jizhou ascended the hall. "Thirty years ago, before this old monk practised Chan, I saw that mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. When later I entered this abode and experienced personal knowledge, I saw that mountains are not mountains and rivers are not rivers. Today, as I attained rest in this abode, as before, I saw that mountains are merely mountains and rivers are merely rivers. People take these three views to be the same or to be different. If anyone can attain this, then he can personally see this old monk."
(Xu Chuandeng Lu, vol 22, T2077p614b29)

Before aiming for liberation one grasps at phenomena, while aiming for liberation one rejects phenomena, and finally one is without grasping or rejection of phenomena. This is very much like the three truths in Tiantai and somewhat like the three natures in Yogacara.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

White Lotus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:09 pm

These views can be seen as the same since all are perception/mind or different since the perceptions are different. I think sudden focuses on "the same". This is very precious!
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:19 pm

Neither grasped nor rejected. Neither form nor emptiness. Neither mountain nor emptiness. Neither relative nor absolute. Thus! :)
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Mon Jan 02, 2017 6:44 pm

The naural condition of the mind is to neither grasp nor reject. Thus. Thus cannot be grasped nor rejected. But is using the name 'thus' falling into words and ignoring Hui Nengs emphasis on 'no thought'? Should we drop all names and concepts? :popcorn:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

dreambow
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby dreambow » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:09 am

As white Lotus was discussing mountains, I thought this quote apt. "Ah! What a wonder! Arunachala stands as an insentient Hill. Its action is mysterious, past human understanding. From the age of innocence it had shone within my mind that Arunachala was something of surpassing grandeur, but even when I came to know through another that it was the same as Tiruvannamalai, I did not realise its meaning. When it drew me up to it, stilling my mind, and I came close, I saw it stand unmoving"

White Lotus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:25 am

Dreambow, reminds me of that wonderful little monk Abhishiktananda/Henri Lasceaux. T x
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:47 am

In sudden there is talk of Mind, but what do we say when there is no longer mind nor no mind. Perception nor no perception? Emptiness of emptiness. Thus? That thus itself is empty, ungraspable and insubstantial. When nothing is seen or unseen thus cannot be seen and yet is known. Ordinary mind is thus: no mind is thus: neither mind nor no mind is thus.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:22 pm

Astus, i am not frightened of tigers, but humbly ask you to tear apart my argument. Eat me. I wish to know the truth of the great matter. Delusions just wont do. Prove to me that the sudden way is superior. I am not convinced. Please bear with me patiently. Tom. :hi:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby Astus » Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:43 pm

White Lotus wrote:I wish to know the truth of the great matter.


About the great matter (大事):

"The Buddha Bhagavat appear in this world to cause sentient beings to aspire toward purity and the wisdom and insight of the buddhas. They appear in this world to manifest the wisdom and insight of the buddhas to sentient beings. They appear in this world to cause sentient beings to attain the wisdom and insight of a buddha’s enlightenment. They appear in this world in order to cause sentient beings to enter the path of the wisdom and insight of a buddha."
(Lotus Sutra, ch 2, BDK Edition, p 30)

So Huineng explains:

"The one great affair is the perceptual understanding of the buddhas. The people of this world are delusively attached to characteristics externally and delusively attached to emptiness internally. If one is able to transcend characteristics within characteristics and to transcend emptiness within emptiness, this is to be undeluded both externally and internally. If you are enlightened to this teaching, your mind will open up [in enlightenment] in a single moment of thought."
(Platform Sutra, ch 7, BDK Edition, p 56)

Prove to me that the sudden way is superior.


The sudden way is pointing out that appearances are already empty, and there is no emptiness outside appearances. If one can confirm this immediately in one's personal experience, that is sudden. If one first needs to pursue studies, cultivate meditation, and abide by the precepts, that is gradual. The result is the same liberation from attachment through the realisation of no self, thus there is no point in talking about inferior and superior.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

White Lotus
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby White Lotus » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:59 pm

"The one great affair is the perceptual understanding of the buddhas.

perceptual/seen/perceived. [arrived at suddenly]

The people of this world are delusively attached to characteristics externally and delusively attached to emptiness internally.

attachment is the problem, something is still grasped.

If one is able to transcend characteristics within characteristics and to transcend emptiness within emptiness.

to "transcend" emptiness 'within' emptiness is to arrive at emptiness 'of' emptiness?

The sudden way is pointing out that appearances are already empty,

the time comes where one can no longer say that appearances are empty, nor that they exist. appearances are thus. neither seen nor unseen.

and there is no emptiness outside appearances.

when appearances are no longer seen nor not seen emptiness is no longer seen nor not seen.

The result is the same liberation from attachment through the realisation of no self

liberation from attachment, no longer grasping. no one to grasp, nothing to be grasped or rejected. that no one is not no one. that nothing is not nothing. it is thus/so.

it seems to me that everything i have written above is like water, it cant be grasped. :broke: i hope i am not wasting your time Astus. :consoling:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Anonymous X
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Re: Sudden Enlightenment

Postby Anonymous X » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:17 am

White Lotus wrote:
"The one great affair is the perceptual understanding of the buddhas.

perceptual/seen/perceived. [arrived at suddenly]

The people of this world are delusively attached to characteristics externally and delusively attached to emptiness internally.

attachment is the problem, something is still grasped.

If one is able to transcend characteristics within characteristics and to transcend emptiness within emptiness.

to "transcend" emptiness 'within' emptiness is to arrive at emptiness 'of' emptiness?

The sudden way is pointing out that appearances are already empty,

the time comes where one can no longer say that appearances are empty, nor that they exist. appearances are thus. neither seen nor unseen.

and there is no emptiness outside appearances.

when appearances are no longer seen nor not seen emptiness is no longer seen nor not seen.

The result is the same liberation from attachment through the realisation of no self

liberation from attachment, no longer grasping. no one to grasp, nothing to be grasped or rejected. that no one is not no one. that nothing is not nothing. it is thus/so.

it seems to me that everything i have written above is like water, it cant be grasped. :broke: i hope i am not wasting your time Astus. :consoling:

All the above quotes point to the experience of Advaya, not-twoness. Suddenly, there is a knowingness present. That state, original purity, begins to integrate all phenomenon, all dharmas, into its sphere of not-twoness. Everything appears in original purity with no sense of problem. Whether you sit or not sit, speak or not speak, this state is present. The questions of what is true and what is not true simply stop. Gradual or sudden, simply stop. This is the natural state that simply Is. I don't know how else to say it. :heart:


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