Thus

bob
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Re: Thus

Post by bob » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:27 pm

Tom, after nearly half a century of practice, I must confess that I am more stupid now than when I began. The only saving grace for me is mournful silence, so it is better that I leave it to the knowledgeable and experienced ones who have wise things to say regarding these various zen matters. When I do write these days, it is mostly to amuse my gullible friends with foolish poems which they immediately forget after reading them.

:hi:

boda
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Re: Thus

Post by boda » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:49 pm

It's not about saying smart or dumb stuff, Bob, but you know that. It's about saying meaningful stuff. :smile:

bob
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Re: Thus

Post by bob » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:21 pm

Greetings Boda!

Thanks for the tip, here is something I once wrote about "meaningful stuff", fwiw:

First off, we need to remember that, in regard to any proposition, doctrine, principle, or belief, it is all conceptual – all of it. Those who suggest otherwise are merely conceptualizing. It is what the human brain does. Any and all meaning is dependent on various applicable conditioning factors which the brain sorts out into concepts and then superimposes on experience after the fact.

Of course, we are not the brain, but that remarkable organ does come in handy as long as we are appearing in these skin suits. Without the conceptual faculty, we’d be pretty helpless in terms of navigating the objective world. The popular strategy propounded by the various esoteric wisdom schools of “going beyond concepts” is itself a concept, and really only relevant at a specific level of spiritual endeavor in which one has exhausted the intellectual component of the search.

In the meantime, why try to escape concepts? All we need do is see them for what they are and discard them when they have served their purpose. They are props in the play on a make-believe stage — that is all. It’s only when we start to take our thoughts seriously, creating belief structures that in turn imply an actual enduring and independent self, that we run into problems.

What the truly wise do is inspect the whole mechanism, eventually recognizing that there is a space between thoughts. In that space, there is no person, no self, no meaning or lack thereof, and no requirement that there even be such fantasies of the imagination. Indeed, from that aware spaciousness, things are revealed to be just what they are, without any conceptual designations whatsoever. It’s the natural state, but it seems just the opposite for those addicted to the search for some meaning to add to it, an endeavor comparable to painting legs on a snake.

As for myself, irrespective of whatever temporary states, views, emotions, experiences, imaginations, or subtle perceptions arise in the course of life, I have never been able to separate myself from that mystical condition of being essentially clueless in regard to any and all of them. This recognition took a while to sink in, but it is frankly undeniable.

Certainly, I could usually grab a handy concept in retrospect and superimpose it on the field of chaos that passes for this human experience, and it might have even made some eccentric sense. I might have even paused in awe at the pseudo-clarity that this ingenious mind can conjure up from its impressive storehouse of self-confirming interpretations on filtered perceptions, despite the fact that a frog in a well knows nothing about the birds in the sky.

If we're fortunate, we realize sooner rather than later that all of our cherished spiritual notions and elegant philosophical insights are essentially a big pile of steaming mush, and then we either shut up, or else, if we're devilishly compelled, we may start scribbling poetry.
Regardless, and to the point: that famously perpetual search for meaning, so earnestly celebrated and/or pursued by the philosophers, internet gurus, and mid-life crisis enthusiasts — who said we actually needed such a ponderous thing? Did it do any of them any enduring good – the meaning makers — to have some reassuring meaning? Were they able to re-direct the fluids swishing about in their neural viaducts in such a way that simply taking another breath amounted to something more significant than a reflexive impersonal automaticity?

And what’s the harvest from that great endeavor, that noble quest for meaning? An endless circus of competing personal, religious, and political belief systems, rife with war and conflict, all beginning when we think we know something, and then convince ourselves of its unassailable import and meaning. Those who think that they know something usually tend to be contentious, especially when their assumed knowledge is challenged by a contrary “knower” with their own competing arsenal of meanings.

The truly humble ones don’t habitually find themselves in conflict, because they’ve done the due diligence necessary to ultimately recognize that they don’t know, and so they have no complaint, nothing to defend or leave home to go to war for, and certainly no presumption of attainment in the meaning-making department. As Tulku Urgyen noted: “When we realize that all the achievements of the six realms of samsara are futile, insubstantial, and meaningless, we lose our appetite for them.”

It’s only when we think we know something — that we are in possession of some particular meaning that in turn demands assertion and protection — that things get testy. We can get pretty reactive when our carefully constructed meanings are challenged, is it not so? After all, our meanings are often essential to our self-images, and despite our grafted-on spiritual idealism to the contrary, those colorful stories of fascinating “me” won’t go down without a fight (or flight)!

Granting our personal story some sense of fanciful meaning often leads to a humorless sense of self-importance, which in turn requires a lot of care and feeding. Furthermore, defending our personal sense of meaning implies taking offense at anyone who might challenge said cherished meaning, and so we set ourselves up for a life of being offended by this, that, or the other.

If somebody or some collection of somebodies is moved to bicker and fuss about whether the so-called ego is an illusion or not, whether we are going to be annihilated or ascended or not, whether one religion or political party is superior to another or not, or whether enlightenment is a many splendored thing or not, let them have at it. Really, what concern is it of ours?

Nevertheless, most of us chronically go about the business of manufacturing and modifying meanings morning, noon, and night, like little cranial factories that never shut down for the week-end so that everyone can rest, and maybe have a little meaningless fun on Saturday Night.

Moreover, when one meaning is outgrown and discarded, we are quick to find another with which to carry on the facade of security and pretense. Heaven forbid we find ourselves with a spare moment unburdened by some arbitrary and self-confirming “meaningfulness” in our lives!
On the other hand, we need not go to an extreme and make “meaning” the bad guy. If one feels the need to tote around a little meaning in their lives, they could do a lot worse than follow this excellent pointer offered by our old friend Rumi: “Nothing is meaningful except surrendering to love. Do it.”

Those who claim that the only reason for living is to get out of life as fast as possible actually have it backwards. In their amnesia, they seem to forget that this world is a stage filled with magical props, we are the actors playing all the roles, and moreover – we chose this adventure ourselves.

In the shock of human embodiment, just about everyone forgets that the reason they incarnate here in the first place is precisely to have this human experience, in whatever form it might take, and that is its meaning, its purpose — simply to be here, as it is, as we are. Nothing need be added to that, and there is no need to run off chasing some ideal of “liberation” from life when we still haven’t come to terms with who and what we are, right here and now.

Moreover, the surest way to insure that we will be returned again and again to this classroom is to harbor and fuel some notion of escaping life. Such an attitude will merely indicate that we have not yet been able to properly appreciate the gift and invitation this circumstance represents — an opportunity to plumb our own depths and discover what kind of stuff we’re made of, when apparently left on our own in the midst of the Unknown.

For reasons as varied as there are humans, we wanted this, we came to enjoy this creative human experience, and that is enough. That is the gift — just to have this, be this, live this. Any meaning we might attribute to any of it is a product of our own choosing, fabricated from our own intention and attention. We are not victims of reality — it is we who grant reality to any and all of it.

Joseph Campbell, in “The Power of Myth”, made a good point when he wrote: “People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances with our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive.”
The truly free are those who recognize that their freedom is not elsewhere, dependent upon some hopeful, imaginary future circumstance where they can at last exhale and disappear. Meaning or meaninglessness, self or not-self, liberated or bound — all such notions are for the ones who still rely on the logic, reason, and propaganda of man-made religions and philosophies to account for their appearance, and so they build and fortify their own prisons, and wage a war within themselves, because none of that truly satisfies.

After years of ambivalent effort expended on trying to figure it out, I let go of that struggle and realized that I already am and have always been — just as I am – the meaning of myself, with no need or motive to look elsewhere, or to add or subtract anything from whatever that might be.

Instead, I find that I’d rather just stand in the resonant silence of this awesome mystery, let the sky breathe through me, the wind and sun and rain pour through me, the irresistible call of love draw me into its consuming embrace— all without any demand for some contrived meaning to momentarily pacify the monkey mind.

When it comes right down to it, both meaning and any lack thereof are both flimsy fantasies of interpretation that are arbitrarily superimposed on life — dreamy smoke rings drifting through space on another Saturday Night in timelessness, dissolving in the same emptiness from which they emerged, an emptiness more beautiful, more radiant and true, than any words could say.

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Lindama
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Re: Thus

Post by Lindama » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 pm

oh Bob!!
:namaste:
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

bob
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Re: Thus

Post by bob » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:43 pm

Linda, it's time I switched to Dakini Script! :heart:

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Lindama
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Re: Thus

Post by Lindama » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:43 pm

yes, it is :heart:
bob wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:43 pm
Linda, it's time I switched to Dakini Script! :heart:
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Thus

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:54 pm

I'm pretty confident that if there were no-one around to have any concepts and all math books were destroyed, 2 + 2 would still be 4.

I'm even willing to stick my neck out and say that I don't need a battery-powered justice detector to contrive that Joseph Mengele was a somewhat less savory person than, say, Dogen Zenji.

But that's just me ...
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

bob
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Re: Thus

Post by bob » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:09 pm

OK here ya go Linda, through the magical process known only to various tantric adepts and nature photographers, here is my said offering:

http://www.pbase.com/1heart/image/166575579

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Lindama
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Re: Thus

Post by Lindama » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:19 pm

much appreciated Bob
:anjali:
bob wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:09 pm
OK here ya go Linda, through the magical process known only to various tantric adepts and nature photographers, here is my said offering:

http://www.pbase.com/1heart/image/166575579
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

boda
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Re: Thus

Post by boda » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:17 am

bob wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:21 pm
I find that I’d rather just stand in the resonant silence of this awesome mystery, let the sky breathe through me, the wind and sun and rain pour through me, the irresistible call of love draw me into its consuming embrace— all without any demand for some contrived meaning to momentarily pacify the monkey mind.
You paint a lovely picture, as always, Bob. Still, I can't help wonder why, in your list of meaningless activities, you didn't mention things like paying your taxes, taking out the trash, or the occasional feeling of irritation or embarrassment. Let's face it, it's meaningful to not pick and choose (as the ancients advise), but some things are just more meaningful than others. :smile:

bob
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Re: Thus

Post by bob » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:51 am

Boda, I find picking and choosing to be one of life's pleasures! Moreover, there is indeed a certain satisfaction in getting a tax refund for participating in the exciting adventure of navigating Turbo Tax! Taking out the trash is a wonderful metaphor, and I am reminded each time about the destiny of my assorted afflictive whatchamacallems. I forget what else you said, but that's me these days. :tongue:

boda
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Re: Thus

Post by boda » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:30 am

bob wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:51 am
I forget what else you said, but that's me these days. :tongue:
You got it covered. Not to imply there was a need to cover it all. :smile:

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KeithA
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Re: Thus

Post by KeithA » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:54 am

bob wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:08 am
Ha, ain't that the truth -- "you make, you get"!

Hiya Keith, I remember New Haven, took a beating on some real estate back there in the late 80s. ;)

Nice to see there is some activity there now, best wishes!
Two quick stories:

When one of our teachers, ZM Dae Kwang, was a young monastic, he did his first Kyol Che (winter retreat) in Korea. It was in an old temple and the monks had assembled for the opening talk. ZM Dae Kwang described it as a charged moment. The retreat teacher slowly made his way to his seat, sat down and pick up his stick. Slamming it on the floor, he said the most terrifying words ZM Dae Kwang had ever heard:
You make, you get
And then he got up and left the Dharma Room. ZM Dae Kwang to this day has a calligraphy of those very words.

The second story is the irony of the real estate loss you incurred. Our building was purchased in the mid-70's. Some years later, someone got the silly idea to purchase a house once removed from the center and a slice of land behind that house. The house ended up getting sold (and re-sold recently), but we still own the useless slice of land behind, which we have to pay taxes on, for some reason. Long story, we took a beating too! Ah well, round and round.

_/|\_
You make, you get.

New Haven Zen Center

bob
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Re: Thus

Post by bob » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:16 am

Thank you for those interesting stories, Keith! I like good stories. Who doesn't eh?

With the benefit of recognizing the goof of time, I notice how we get rich, go broke, and break even simultaneously.

This creates a sense of humorous detachment, which can interfere with the compassionate response to apparent suffering,
so it is best kept to oneself, unless you are drinking with fellow idiots, then you can babble on because nobody remembers
what you said, and it is better that they don't -- why confuse people more than they already are?

Blessings to you and your sangha!

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bokki
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Re: Thus

Post by bokki » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:26 am

The retreat teacher slowly made his way to his seat, sat down and picked up his stick. Slamming it on the floor, he said the most terrifying words ZM Dae Kwang had ever heard:
You make, you get
thank you, Keith
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
Zen Space Forum

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Dan74
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Re: Thus

Post by Dan74 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:11 pm

I guess these conceptual contrivances is what keeps us going round and round. But when based in and powered by a deeply-buried pain, they ain't so easy to dissolve. Hence teachers, cushion-time, other practices and life lived with eyes as open as possible.

Or so it seems to me.

_/|\_

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Thus

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:14 pm

[Never mind, that was rude].
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

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bokki
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Re: Thus

Post by bokki » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:09 pm

thank you puer, at the end u did reasonably.
i also count on friends to tell me when i go overboard.
bokki
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
Zen Space Forum

White Lotus
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Re: Thus

Post by White Lotus » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:54 pm

Thank you Bob. I hope you will stay with us. Patriarch Chin said: in the end you don't know.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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