"Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
"Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Greetings Dharma Wheel
I've seen it claimed, admittedly generally by modern teachers that are suspiciously eclectic if not outright new age, that "self inquiry" is a practice in the Zen/Chan/Seon tradition. Is this the case, and if so could you direct me to some relevant resources? If not, could you clarify?
(My readings on these schools of Buddhism are limited to "The Method of No Method" by Sheng Yen, and "Moon in a Dew Drop: Writings of Zen Master Dogen;" the latter has vanished from my bookshelf due to a friend so its been a while )
Thanks!
aflatun
I've seen it claimed, admittedly generally by modern teachers that are suspiciously eclectic if not outright new age, that "self inquiry" is a practice in the Zen/Chan/Seon tradition. Is this the case, and if so could you direct me to some relevant resources? If not, could you clarify?
(My readings on these schools of Buddhism are limited to "The Method of No Method" by Sheng Yen, and "Moon in a Dew Drop: Writings of Zen Master Dogen;" the latter has vanished from my bookshelf due to a friend so its been a while )
Thanks!
aflatun
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Just bumping this, thank you for any input
(Note to mods: If there is a better way of bumping a thread, or if this breaks a rule, please let me know )
(Note to mods: If there is a better way of bumping a thread, or if this breaks a rule, please let me know )
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Well, you could have a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Tou and see what you think.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Thank you very much dzogchungpa, I will have a look shortlydzogchungpa wrote:Well, you could have a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Tou and see what you think.
Wiki, who would have thought
I guess I didn't know the right word or phrase to search for...
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Yuanwu and Foyan are also both big on introspection and self-observation.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan (tr. chintokkong)
若覓真不動。動上有不動。
"Search for what it really is to be unmoving in what does not move amid movement."
-Huineng (tr. Mark Crosbie)
ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན། །
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན། །
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན། །
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན། །
-Yaoshan Weiyan (tr. chintokkong)
若覓真不動。動上有不動。
"Search for what it really is to be unmoving in what does not move amid movement."
-Huineng (tr. Mark Crosbie)
ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན། །
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན། །
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན། །
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན། །
- dzogchungpa
- Posts: 6333
- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
If you go here: https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Hsuan- ... ndbook.pdf
and look at the section "4b. How to Investigate Chan, the Meditation Topic" you can read some teaching from Hsuan Hua on Hua Tou, which is referred to there as "meditation topic". That book is a pretty good introduction to his approach to Chan practice in general, if you are interested.
and look at the section "4b. How to Investigate Chan, the Meditation Topic" you can read some teaching from Hsuan Hua on Hua Tou, which is referred to there as "meditation topic". That book is a pretty good introduction to his approach to Chan practice in general, if you are interested.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
I would have thought that self reflection is part of any spiritual path.
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- Location: Bangkok
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
I wouldn't equate Sheng Yen's book with self enquiry. The way he describes Silent Illumination is miles apart from self enquiry. There is no enquirer, there is only being present to body, mind, and appearances without looking to change or alter any of it, or to seek for any knowledge, answer, or state of mind. Because of our conditioning, we are asking all sorts of questions, but this is not really Chan. If you are drawn to analyze, I would suggest you read about Madhyamika teachings of Nagarjuna. This can provide a good basis to jump from.aflatun wrote:Greetings Dharma Wheel
I've seen it claimed, admittedly generally by modern teachers that are suspiciously eclectic if not outright new age, that "self inquiry" is a practice in the Zen/Chan/Seon tradition. Is this the case, and if so could you direct me to some relevant resources? If not, could you clarify?
(My readings on these schools of Buddhism are limited to "The Method of No Method" by Sheng Yen, and "Moon in a Dew Drop: Writings of Zen Master Dogen;" the latter has vanished from my bookshelf due to a friend so its been a while )
Thanks!
aflatun
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. "
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Thank you Temicco! I will put them on my list. I noticed this in the Wiki article linked above:Temicco wrote:Yuanwu and Foyan are also both big on introspection and self-observation.
The same Yuanwu I presume?wiki wrote:Dahui was also against the intellectualism and literary commentary that had begun to enter into Koan practice with the Blue Cliff Record of his master Yuan-wu. In fact, Dahui burned his copy of the Blue Cliff Record.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Indeed!Anders wrote:“To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. "
Are you saying Dogen was against this kind of practice, or do you mean that's the form "self inquiry" took for him?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Thank you for the response Anonymous X! Sorry I should have been more clear, I meant my readings in Zen/Chan/Seon are mostly limited to these, I didn't mean readings in Hua Tou per se ( wasn't even clear on this phrase until dzogchunpa's post)Anonymous X wrote:I wouldn't equate Sheng Yen's book with self enquiry. The way he describes Silent Illumination is miles apart from self enquiry. There is no enquirer, there is only being present to body, mind, and appearances without looking to change or alter any of it, or to seek for any knowledge, answer, or state of mind. Because of our conditioning, we are asking all sorts of questions, but this is not really Chan. If you are drawn to analyze, I would suggest you read about Madhyamika teachings of Nagarjuna. This can provide a good basis to jump from.aflatun wrote:Greetings Dharma Wheel
I've seen it claimed, admittedly generally by modern teachers that are suspiciously eclectic if not outright new age, that "self inquiry" is a practice in the Zen/Chan/Seon tradition. Is this the case, and if so could you direct me to some relevant resources? If not, could you clarify?
(My readings on these schools of Buddhism are limited to "The Method of No Method" by Sheng Yen, and "Moon in a Dew Drop: Writings of Zen Master Dogen;" the latter has vanished from my bookshelf due to a friend so its been a while )
Thanks!
aflatun
As far as Madhyamaka goes, yes, I'm a huge fan and have been reading up on this
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
there's self inquiry and there's Self Inquiry.
Self-inquiry is looking within in one of various ways, including the "examined life."
Self Inquiry, in contrast, is a specific form of meditation practice that is associated among English speakers at least with Advaitin masters such as Ramana Maharishi.
Self Inquiry isn't a Buddhist practice. There are plenty of Buddhist practices such as the ones mentioned in this thread that could fairly be described as self inquiry.
Self-inquiry is looking within in one of various ways, including the "examined life."
Self Inquiry, in contrast, is a specific form of meditation practice that is associated among English speakers at least with Advaitin masters such as Ramana Maharishi.
Self Inquiry isn't a Buddhist practice. There are plenty of Buddhist practices such as the ones mentioned in this thread that could fairly be described as self inquiry.
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Awesome, thank you so much, plenty to dig into.dzogchungpa wrote:If you go here: https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Hsuan- ... ndbook.pdf
and look at the section "4b. How to Investigate Chan, the Meditation Topic" you can read some teaching from Hsuan Hua on Hua Tou, which is referred to there as "meditation topic". That book is a pretty good introduction to his approach to Chan practice in general, if you are interested.
There are also a few references in the Wiki article, including Sheng Yen (Shattering the Great Doubt: The Chan Practice of Huatou). This wasn't on my radar, have you ever read it/heard anything about it?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Yes. I wasn't looking for anything of an Advaita flavor as I'm mostly coming out of a Pali Buddhist practice/reading background right now. I was more examining the assertion that these kinds of pointed questions ("Who am I?") might be used in the Zen tradition, hopefully with a different intention/view vis-a-vis Advaita and Neo Advaita. Thank you!DGA wrote:there's self inquiry and there's Self Inquiry.
Self-inquiry is looking within in one of various ways, including the "examined life."
Self Inquiry, in contrast, is a specific form of meditation practice that is associated among English speakers at least with Advaitin masters such as Ramana Maharishi.
Self Inquiry isn't a Buddhist practice. There are plenty of Buddhist practices such as the ones mentioned in this thread that could fairly be described as self inquiry.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
For a thorough treatment of the topic of huatou practice: What is Ganhwa Seon?
As for "self inquiry", that is a confusing expression. There is no self in Buddhism, so there is nothing to inquire about. Its usual sense of self-inspection, contemplating one's emotional and mental state, that is too generic to be of any use. The four bases of mindfulness (satipatthana/smrtyupasthana) is the closest probably as a methodical approach, and more commonly the practice of confession and repentance. But the Chan approach to repentance is how it's explained in chapter 6 of the Platform Sutra, and that shows how there isn't really any inquiry into anything.
As for "self inquiry", that is a confusing expression. There is no self in Buddhism, so there is nothing to inquire about. Its usual sense of self-inspection, contemplating one's emotional and mental state, that is too generic to be of any use. The four bases of mindfulness (satipatthana/smrtyupasthana) is the closest probably as a methodical approach, and more commonly the practice of confession and repentance. But the Chan approach to repentance is how it's explained in chapter 6 of the Platform Sutra, and that shows how there isn't really any inquiry into anything.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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- Location: Bangkok
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
I've seen Shattering The Great Doubt mentioned before. Was Sheng Yen a teacher of this method, too? This is quite different than Silent Illumination.aflatun wrote:Awesome, thank you so much, plenty to dig into.dzogchungpa wrote:If you go here: https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Hsuan- ... ndbook.pdf
and look at the section "4b. How to Investigate Chan, the Meditation Topic" you can read some teaching from Hsuan Hua on Hua Tou, which is referred to there as "meditation topic". That book is a pretty good introduction to his approach to Chan practice in general, if you are interested.
There are also a few references in the Wiki article, including Sheng Yen (Shattering the Great Doubt: The Chan Practice of Huatou). This wasn't on my radar, have you ever read it/heard anything about it?
Because we all differ in our styles of delusion and our application of methods to counteract it, I have to say that the most illuminating and helpful Chan book I've read in recent memory has been Zongmi On Chan, mentioned by Astus awhile ago. It clarified so much for me about my own practice and the various schools of Chan during the formative Tang period. Zongmi's work is a beacon of wisdom illuminating the Chan gates. It is the only critical work like this I've ever seen. I was always moved by Huang Po's style, but Zongmi took it to another level.
Anyone that is interested in Korean Seon should also read The Sutra Of Perfect Englightenment with is held with very high regard along with Zongmi's works.
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
The intention is awakening.aflatun wrote:I was more examining the assertion that these kinds of pointed questions ("Who am I?") might be used in the Zen tradition, hopefully with a different intention/view vis-a-vis Advaita and Neo Advaita.
Sheng-yen's books are good (he was proficient in a wide range of practice methods, not just silent illumination or huatou/gongan). One of his heirs, Guo Gu, posts over at ZFI if anyone wants to inquire regarding Sheng-yen's teachings or writings from someone intimately familiar.
For a very literal and kind description of the wato method, read Mumon's commentary to case 1 ("Joshu's Mu") in the Mumonkan:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/mumonkan.htm
~ Meido
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
Fantastic, thank you for this!Astus wrote:For a thorough treatment of the topic of huatou practice: What is Ganhwa Seon?
Astus wrote:As for "self inquiry", that is a confusing expression.
Agreed, which is perhaps why its so easily and readily seized upon by those looking to promote an atma-vada agenda.
Astus wrote:There is no self in Buddhism, so there is nothing to inquire about.
No self yes, however I was guessing that in Chan/Zen/Seon the purpose of the inquiry (assuming the use of a question that asks about a "who," as the practice seems not limited to this) was to come to this realization, i.e. the question is unanswerable, there's nothing to find, etc. Thoughts? (as we know I have much to read and learn here, just putting this out there for conversation)
(cf. with Analayo as quoted in the wiki article: "the difference between simple walking and walking meditation as a Satipatthana is that a meditator keeps in mind the question: "Who goes? Whose is this going?" " Funny enough I remember this passage intriguing me when I read this book but I had forgotten about it!)
Note to mods, Astus, etc: If we're finding "self inquiry" too imprecise for this topic I'm entirely happy to have the post title changed to something else, I don't want to mislead anyone
with metta
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Re: "Self inquiry" in Zen, Chan, etc
I've read two of his articles on Silent Illumination (Guo Gu), I greatly enjoyed them. I didn't realize he was accessible, so to speak, thank you for this, and the link, I have a lot of homework to doMeido wrote:aflatun wrote:I was more examining the assertion that these kinds of pointed questions ("Who am I?") might be used in the Zen tradition, hopefully with a different intention/view vis-a-vis Advaita and Neo Advaita.As I had thought, thank youMeido wrote:The intention is awakening.
Meido wrote:Sheng-yen's books are good (he was proficient in a wide range of practice methods, not just silent illumination or huatou/gongan). One of his heirs, Guo Gu, posts over at ZFI if anyone wants to inquire regarding Sheng-yen's teachings or writings from someone intimately familiar.
For a very literal and kind description of the wato method, read Mumon's commentary to case 1 ("Joshu's Mu") in the Mumonkan:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zen/mumonkan.htm
~ Meido
with metta
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53
"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.
That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."
Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16