James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6704
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Astus » Thu May 18, 2017 12:51 pm

Anders wrote:Why don't you write to him and ask him to clarify on fb then?
I already did. :twothumbsup:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
dharmagoat
Posts: 2154
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by dharmagoat » Thu May 18, 2017 1:03 pm

Astus wrote:Seeing the nature (kensho) is the essential requirement.
Yes, I understood that is what we are discussing. Not a blank state, but one of openness.
Astus wrote:Enlightenment is not an experience, but seeing that all experiences are unestablished.
"Seeing", however it is meant metaphorically, still pertains to experience.

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Anonymous X » Thu May 18, 2017 1:12 pm

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:I didn't say there was no guidance, just formal instructions, a model laid out from point A to point B.
But, as you could see yourself in my previous post, there are formal and clear instructions. Furthermore, Huangbo's teachings assume the familiarity with the general Buddhist teachings that cover the extensive discussion of the threefold training.
This seemed to be done away with in favor of the sitting practice and the 'koan' of refraining from conceptual thinking.
Huangbo's teachings contain nothing for sitting meditation or reflecting on koans. Sitting meditation is a common practice, just as sutra recitation, repentance, etc., while koan inspection is a practice that occurred centuries after Huangbo.
They also had a living example of a 'fully awakened' being amongst them, living and shitting amongst them.
The mere presence of a buddha can be inspiring, but not liberating.
LIke I said to Malcolm, if you subscribe to a model/path, you are going to measure everything through this filter. From my perspective, this is the Great Wall, not the one in China.
Without correct view there is no liberation.

What I was referring to was not a literal Huatou practice of using a koan, but the confrontation with the instruction of refraining from conceptual thinking. Anyone that sits will sooner or later have to deal with this aspect of mind.

How would you know what it is like to be in the presence of a Buddha or fully awakened being? There are many stories in Buddhist literature of sudden awakening in the presence of such a one. Whether you believe this kind of thing or not is another matter and I don't want to belabour this point.

Do you have the correct view? If you say yes, show us your liberation. Quoting books is not going to convince me or you that any view or practice is going to collapse the self structure. For me, practice will help one let go on a certain level and make one's life much less reactive and a much more well adjusted person. Come back and tell us if you've experienced anything that cut through your habit energy once and for all. I'm not talking about smoking cigarettes type of habit. Maybe you are of the opinion that cutting through is a lifetime/lifetimes of hacking away? This kind of thinking is not for me. Thinking is not going to get us anywhere except down to the corner market for a bottle of milk. The more you rely on the written word, the further you get from any discovery. You once thanked me for reminding you that all views need to be abandoned. What happened?

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6704
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Astus » Thu May 18, 2017 1:26 pm

dharmagoat wrote:"Seeing", however it is meant metaphorically, still pertains to experience.
Not really. The third noble truth is the truth of cessation, the end of craving - that is not an experience. Seeing emptiness, the nature of phenomena, is the end of fabricating a self/substance, the cessation of conceptualisation, so again - that is not an experience.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
dharmagoat
Posts: 2154
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by dharmagoat » Thu May 18, 2017 1:46 pm

Astus wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:"Seeing", however it is meant metaphorically, still pertains to experience.
Not really. The third noble truth is the truth of cessation, the end of craving - that is not an experience. Seeing emptiness, the nature of phenomena, is the end of fabricating a self/substance, the cessation of conceptualisation, so again - that is not an experience.
We are now at a place where I can not speak from experience, and where we must both rely on the words of others. Because you are more knowledgeable than I am in this area, I am happy to accept what you put forward.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25384
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 2:13 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
How would you know what it is like to be in the presence of a Buddha or fully awakened being?
The real question here is how would you? You keep on waffling on about Chan, yet you've never practiced it. You keep waffling on about koans, but you've never practiced the koan method. In fact, just as your posts over in the Dzogchen forum were deeply arrogant and uninformed (and no one who has not received teachings from a master is informed about Dzogchen), so too are your posts here.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6704
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Astus » Thu May 18, 2017 2:37 pm

Anonymous X wrote:How would you know what it is like to be in the presence of a Buddha or fully awakened being? There are many stories in Buddhist literature of sudden awakening in the presence of such a one.
Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of the presence of a buddha?
Do you have the correct view?
What constitutes correct view is defined by the sutras and shastras. But it can be summed up as:

all compounded phenomena are impermanent
all contaminated phenomena are suffering
all phenomena are without self
nirvāṇa is peace

(The Noble Māhayāna Sūtra of The Questions of the Nāga King Sāgara)

See also: What Makes You Not a Buddhist
If you say yes, show us your liberation.
"If there are those who say that they see bodhi and have attained it, we should know that they are the ones with exceeding arrogance."
(Sūtra of Mahā-Prajñā-Pāramitā Pronounced by Mañjuśrī Bodhisattva
Thinking is not going to get us anywhere except down to the corner market for a bottle of milk. The more you rely on the written word, the further you get from any discovery.
"World-honored One, what is the cause of this quietude and vision?"
"Good son, it is purified discipline and true insight accomplished through purified hearing and reflection."

(Scripture on the Explication of Underlying Meaning, ch 6, BDK ed, p 68)

"For all bodhisattvas the cause is
The permeation of hearing [scriptural] discourse,
For nonimaginative wisdom is
True and correct reflection."

(Asanga: Summary of the Great Vehicle, ch 8, BDK ed, p 92)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25384
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 2:44 pm

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:How would you know what it is like to be in the presence of a Buddha or fully awakened being? There are many stories in Buddhist literature of sudden awakening in the presence of such a one.
Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of the presence of a buddha?

Should be:

"Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of being in the mere presence of a buddha?"
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

White Lotus
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by White Lotus » Thu May 18, 2017 2:56 pm

To be free from views is to know that all is empty (sudden). Or to know and directly feel/see that all words and ideas are unreal (gradual). Whatever i say meets the point (sudden) or misses the point (gradual). Huang Po makes it clear that all teachings are just ideas. Even talk about Mind is misleading for Huang Po (gradual). There should be nothing attained at all. If i have attained i have not attained (gradual). So, theres not a thing to talk about. Or from the sudden perspective all words are naturally empty, there is no view ever held or to be held.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1103
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by White Lotus » Thu May 18, 2017 3:12 pm

on the gradual path you can't attain anything. There is not even a mind transmission. This is directly experienced. On the sudden path kensho can be known/attained directly, but it is empty: a mere appearence and so can't really be called an attainment. The two paths are different and yet the same.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6704
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Astus » Thu May 18, 2017 3:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:Should be:
"Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of being in the mere presence of a buddha?"
Yes, that. :thumbsup:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Anonymous X » Thu May 18, 2017 3:53 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Should be:
"Could you provide a few quotes from the sutras where people attained enlightenment because of being in the mere presence of a buddha?"
Yes, that. :thumbsup:
You are the one providing the quotes here.

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6704
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Astus » Thu May 18, 2017 4:11 pm

Anonymous X wrote:You are the one providing the quotes here.
I find it a good way to avoid stating things that are incompatible with the Dharma, furthermore, it allows everyone to cross reference it.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6704
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Astus » Thu May 18, 2017 4:53 pm

Anders wrote:Why don't you write to him and ask him to clarify on fb then?
He replied that "radical openness" was a term he used nowadays for awakening/enlightenment in Zen where the sense of self and other had fallen away, but he found it difficult and even foolish to attempt to express it verbally. Furthermore, he did not think there was a direct cause of it, rather discipline and practice could make one prone to such an accidental experience/moment/encounter.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Anonymous X » Thu May 18, 2017 6:07 pm

Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You are the one providing the quotes here.
I find it a good way to avoid stating things that are incompatible with the Dharma, furthermore, it allows everyone to cross reference it.
Off the top of my head, the Buddha silently holds up a flower amidst a gathering of his followers. Only Kasyapa responds with a knowing smile. Hence, the transmission of the Dharma to Kasyapa, the first patriarch of Chan. These are nice stories, but how does this help you uproot the foundation of the self structure?

As I said before, if you believe in things like this, the stories abound. They make for good reading, though. You have to remember that much of the early Buddhist teachings is apochryphal and some sutras are heavily disputed. Even the famous phrase attributed to Bodhidharma, "A special transmission outside of the scriptures" is believed to have originated first in the Song dyansty.

Do you have a teacher, Astus? Or, do you get everything that you speak of from reading and your own meditation? It's not clear if you are involved with a specific Buddhist school or lineage. I know you mentioned you studied Buddhism at a university? Was this mostly academic work?

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25384
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 6:31 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Astus wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You are the one providing the quotes here.
I find it a good way to avoid stating things that are incompatible with the Dharma, furthermore, it allows everyone to cross reference it.
Off the top of my head, the Buddha silently holds up a flower amidst a gathering of his followers. Only Kasyapa responds with a knowing smile. Hence, the transmission of the Dharma to Kasyapa, the first patriarch of Chan. These are nice stories, but how does this help you uproot the foundation of the self structure?
It helps if you know what kind of flower it was.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:21 am
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by aflatun » Thu May 18, 2017 7:06 pm

Astus wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:"Seeing", however it is meant metaphorically, still pertains to experience.
Not really. The third noble truth is the truth of cessation, the end of craving - that is not an experience. Seeing emptiness, the nature of phenomena, is the end of fabricating a self/substance, the cessation of conceptualisation, so again - that is not an experience.
Could you unpack this some? If they're not experiences what are they?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25384
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 7:14 pm

aflatun wrote:
Astus wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:"Seeing", however it is meant metaphorically, still pertains to experience.
Not really. The third noble truth is the truth of cessation, the end of craving - that is not an experience. Seeing emptiness, the nature of phenomena, is the end of fabricating a self/substance, the cessation of conceptualisation, so again - that is not an experience.
Could you unpack this some? If they're not experiences what are they?
All experiences are necessarily conceptual.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:21 am
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by aflatun » Thu May 18, 2017 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
aflatun wrote:
Astus wrote:
Not really. The third noble truth is the truth of cessation, the end of craving - that is not an experience. Seeing emptiness, the nature of phenomena, is the end of fabricating a self/substance, the cessation of conceptualisation, so again - that is not an experience.
Could you unpack this some? If they're not experiences what are they?
All experiences are necessarily conceptual.
No quarrel with that from me.

If I'm following you, you're contrasting nonconceptual wisdom of seeing emptiness for example (jnana, etc), vs. experience (always conceptual)?

Even if that's the case I'm not sure I understand how the cessation of craving is not an experience, as Astus said. Something that was previously present is gone (forever) and that absence is experienced. Thoughts?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 25384
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: James Ford on kensho, from Pathos

Post by Malcolm » Thu May 18, 2017 8:07 pm

aflatun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
aflatun wrote:
Could you unpack this some? If they're not experiences what are they?
All experiences are necessarily conceptual.
No quarrel with that from me.

If I'm following you, you're contrasting nonconceptual wisdom of seeing emptiness for example (jnana, etc), vs. experience (always conceptual)?

Even if that's the case I'm not sure I understand how the cessation of craving is not an experience, as Astus said. Something that was previously present is gone (forever) and that absence is experienced. Thoughts?
You cannot experience a tree that has never grown. Cessation is not the absence of something.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kunzang Tobgyal, Nyedrag Yeshe and 24 guests