Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

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Malcolm
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Malcolm » Sun May 21, 2017 7:20 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
How could it be an experience when cessation is the end of the aggregates? What is left to have any experience?
Cessation is the end of which aggregates now?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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aflatun
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by aflatun » Sun May 21, 2017 7:24 pm

:popcorn:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun May 21, 2017 10:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
How could it be an experience when cessation is the end of the aggregates? What is left to have any experience?
Cessation is the end of which aggregates now?
When fabrications stop at least one of the aggregates have to stop since nothing is outside of the aggregates.

Otherwise I have to say there can be an aggregate without becoming. That doesn't make sense. If the aggregate has no more arising and ceasing, there's no more aggregate.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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dharmagoat
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by dharmagoat » Sun May 21, 2017 11:06 pm

:popcorn:
Funny how Zen becomes unrecognisable in its own neighbourhood.
Last edited by dharmagoat on Sun May 21, 2017 11:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sun May 21, 2017 11:07 pm

Apologies I just realized this was in the Zen forum
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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dharmagoat
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by dharmagoat » Sun May 21, 2017 11:12 pm

Much respect to you, PuerAzaelis.

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aflatun
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by aflatun » Sun May 21, 2017 11:28 pm

dharmagoat wrote::popcorn:
Funny how Zen becomes unrecognisable in its own neighbourhood.
Could you explain what you mean, for my edification?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Dharma Flower » Mon May 22, 2017 1:17 am

I'm not saying here that I agree with Dogen's understanding of Buddha-nature. I am just saying that certain Theravadin critiques of the doctrine of Buddha-nature might not apply to it. My own interpretation of Buddha-nature is based on The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana.

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Malcolm
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Malcolm » Mon May 22, 2017 1:21 am

PuerAzaelis wrote: When fabrications stop at least one of the aggregates have to stop since nothing is outside of the aggregates.
Which one? And who told you there was nothing outside of the aggregates? Certainly not the Buddha.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dharmagoat
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by dharmagoat » Mon May 22, 2017 2:21 am

aflatun wrote:
dharmagoat wrote::popcorn:
Funny how Zen becomes unrecognisable in its own neighbourhood.
Could you explain what you mean, for my edification?
Only that (in my humble opinion) the spirit of Zen as a unique practice tradition is lost in the clamour of pan-Buddhist ideation. Or something.

On a subforum dedicated to Zen, one would hope this doesn't happen. Think of the children.

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aflatun
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by aflatun » Mon May 22, 2017 2:35 am

dharmagoat wrote:
aflatun wrote:
dharmagoat wrote::popcorn:
Funny how Zen becomes unrecognisable in its own neighbourhood.
Could you explain what you mean, for my edification?
Only that (in my humble opinion) the spirit of Zen as a unique practice tradition is lost in the clamour of pan-Buddhist ideation. Or something.

On a subforum dedicated to Zen, one would hope this doesn't happen. Think of the children.
Those dang kids :twothumbsup:

Thanks for clarifying, I thought you were objecting to aggregates arising and ceasing specifically as non zen
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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dharmagoat
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by dharmagoat » Mon May 22, 2017 2:41 am

aflatun wrote:Thanks for clarifying, I thought you were objecting to aggregates arising and ceasing specifically as non zen
No, it was just another one of my unprimed thought-bombs thrown into a conversation.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon May 22, 2017 3:56 am

dharmagoat wrote:
aflatun wrote:
dharmagoat wrote::popcorn:
Funny how Zen becomes unrecognisable in its own neighbourhood.
Could you explain what you mean, for my edification?
Only that (in my humble opinion) the spirit of Zen as a unique practice tradition is lost in the clamour of pan-Buddhist ideation. Or something.

On a subforum dedicated to Zen, one would hope this doesn't happen. Think of the children.
Yes, we really should all just be exhorting one another to chop wood carry water, and just sit more.

Sorry, couldn't resist:)

Anyway the thread was from the get go only marginally about Zen, referenced a piece by a Theravadin teachers, and predictably it's kind of meandering, do people have anything specific that would focus the conversation a little more? If so PM me, if not I'm gonna go ahead and lay this one to rest.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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