Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Anonymous X wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:I can't quite put my finger on it, but something tells me that Thanissaro Bhikkhu has an overly simplistic understanding of Buddha-nature. He might be a good teacher in other ways, but I think he's shortsighted when it comes to the meaning of Buddha-nature.

....he's a Theravadin. He has no reason to even value the notion of Buddha Nature, let alone a drive to understand it, it's not part of his way of seeing things. Kind of the wrong person to read on the subject of Buddha nature.
I think your point is clearly not a valid one. It's a passive-aggressive position. :toilet:
It's a statement of fact, with nothing passive about it. Why would anyone be interested in what Theravadins have to say about a subject which is not part of their doctrine, which most of them reject? I wouldn't spend my time reading Christians writing on the Talmud either.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Dharma Flower »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:

....he's a Theravadin. He has no reason to even value the notion of Buddha Nature, let alone a drive to understand it, it's not part of his way of seeing things. Kind of the wrong person to read on the subject of Buddha nature.
I think your point is clearly not a valid one. It's a passive-aggressive position. :toilet:
It's a statement of fact, with nothing passive about it. Why would anyone be interested in what Theravadins have to say about a subject which is not part of their doctrine, which most of them reject? I wouldn't spend my time reading Christians writing on the Talmud either.
Part of right speech should be accurately portraying the teachings of other Buddhist paths when a Buddhist is writing about them. I don't think that when certain Theravadins and Mahayanists inaccurately portray the teachings of each other's paths is right speech, which is why I started this thread to counter Thanissaro Bhikkhu's article. Dogen addressed many of the article's misconceptions long ago.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Dharma Flower wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: I think your point is clearly not a valid one. It's a passive-aggressive position. :toilet:
It's a statement of fact, with nothing passive about it. Why would anyone be interested in what Theravadins have to say about a subject which is not part of their doctrine, which most of them reject? I wouldn't spend my time reading Christians writing on the Talmud either.
Part of right speech should be accurately portraying the teachings of other Buddhist paths when a Buddhist is writing about them. I don't think that when certain Theravadins and Mahayanists inaccurately portray the teachings of each other's paths is right speech, which is why I started this thread to counter Thanissaro Bhikkhu's article. Dogen addressed many of the article's misconceptions long ago.
Right, I get it...it just seems like there is no point in trying to "counter" someone with a point of view that excludes the whole subject of Buddha Nature, and who likely wouldn't consider Dogen an authority on anything. I mean Thanissaro is an interesting dude, I read him and enjoy some of his work, but on a subject like Buddha Nature....naw.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Dharma Flower »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Right, I get it...it just seems like there is no point in trying to "counter" someone with a point of view that excludes the whole subject of Buddha Nature, and who likely wouldn't consider Dogen an authority on anything. I mean Thanissaro is an interesting dude, I read him and enjoy some of his work, but on a subject like Buddha Nature....naw.
I just wish that Mahayanists and Theravadins could appreciate each other as Buddhists and not tell false things about each other.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Anonymous X »

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Why would Buddhanature not be impermanence?
Because it is a contradiction in terms. Buddhanature is not a conditioned thing. Therefore, it cannot be impermanent.
Buddha nature is not any 'thing'. It can never be separated from what arises, and what arises is impermanent by nature. So I say Buddhanature is Impermanence. This is a truly non dual teaching where there is no separation from anything, nothing to attain, nothing to know. Your literal physical appearance is Buddhanature. It can be called by whatever name one chooses but it will never be found separate from all universes.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Anonymous X »

Dharma Flower wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Right, I get it...it just seems like there is no point in trying to "counter" someone with a point of view that excludes the whole subject of Buddha Nature, and who likely wouldn't consider Dogen an authority on anything. I mean Thanissaro is an interesting dude, I read him and enjoy some of his work, but on a subject like Buddha Nature....naw.
I just wish that Mahayanists and Theravadins could appreciate each other as Buddhists and not tell false things about each other.
The only way that this can happen is to stop being a Mahayanist or Theravadin. Identity is always going to cause separation.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Cianan »

Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Why would Buddhanature not be impermanence?
Because it is a contradiction in terms. Buddhanature is not a conditioned thing. Therefore, it cannot be impermanent.
Buddha nature is not any 'thing'. It can never be separated from what arises, and what arises is impermanent by nature. So I say Buddhanature is Impermanence. This is a truly non dual teaching where there is no separation from anything, nothing to attain, nothing to know. Your literal physical appearance is Buddhanature. It can be called by whatever name one chooses but it will never be found separate from all universes.
The Buddha taught all that is conditioned to be impermanent contrary to nirvana. Nirvana isn't anything besides Buddhanature, and if Buddhanature were itself impermanent it couldn't be that unchanging reality. It's neither permanent nor impermanent. The teaching that buddhanature is impermanent is dualistic. Impermanence is dualistic.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Malcolm »

Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Why would Buddhanature not be impermanence?
Because it is a contradiction in terms. Buddhanature is not a conditioned thing. Therefore, it cannot be impermanent.
Buddha nature is not any 'thing'. It can never be separated from what arises, and what arises is impermanent by nature. So I say Buddhanature is Impermanence. This is a truly non dual teaching where there is no separation from anything, nothing to attain, nothing to know. Your literal physical appearance is Buddhanature. It can be called by whatever name one chooses but it will never be found separate from all universes.

What exactly do you think "buddhanature" is?
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by DGA »

Dharma Flower wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Right, I get it...it just seems like there is no point in trying to "counter" someone with a point of view that excludes the whole subject of Buddha Nature, and who likely wouldn't consider Dogen an authority on anything. I mean Thanissaro is an interesting dude, I read him and enjoy some of his work, but on a subject like Buddha Nature....naw.
I just wish that Mahayanists and Theravadins could appreciate each other as Buddhists and not tell false things about each other.
Most do from what I've seen. I try to myself. At a minimum it's good to stay out of each other's way when and as possible.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Anonymous X »

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Because it is a contradiction in terms. Buddhanature is not a conditioned thing. Therefore, it cannot be impermanent.
Buddha nature is not any 'thing'. It can never be separated from what arises, and what arises is impermanent by nature. So I say Buddhanature is Impermanence. This is a truly non dual teaching where there is no separation from anything, nothing to attain, nothing to know. Your literal physical appearance is Buddhanature. It can be called by whatever name one chooses but it will never be found separate from all universes.

What exactly do you think "buddhanature" is?
I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Malcolm »

Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Buddha nature is not any 'thing'. It can never be separated from what arises, and what arises is impermanent by nature. So I say Buddhanature is Impermanence. This is a truly non dual teaching where there is no separation from anything, nothing to attain, nothing to know. Your literal physical appearance is Buddhanature. It can be called by whatever name one chooses but it will never be found separate from all universes.

What exactly do you think "buddhanature" is?
I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Anonymous X »

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

What exactly do you think "buddhanature" is?
I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
I've said it before, there is no part of you that can separate and identify such a thing. You are only suggesting an experience of Mind, not buddhanature. If I said this very moment was a manifestation of buddhanature, would you be able to separate buddhanature from it? It's not a 'thing' and I don't try to experience it.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Malcolm »

Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
I've said it before, there is no part of you that can separate and identify such a thing. You are only suggesting an experience of Mind, not buddhanature. If I said this very moment was a manifestation of buddhanature, would you be able to separate buddhanature from it? It's not a 'thing' and I don't try to experience it.

No, I am not suggesting an experience of mind or Mind (whatever that is).

When you've met a person, you can always spot them in a crowd. So it is with buddhanature.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Anonymous X »

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
I've said it before, there is no part of you that can separate and identify such a thing. You are only suggesting an experience of Mind, not buddhanature. If I said this very moment was a manifestation of buddhanature, would you be able to separate buddhanature from it? It's not a 'thing' and I don't try to experience it.

No, I am not suggesting an experience of mind or Mind (whatever that is).

When you've met a person, you can always spot them in a crowd. So it is with buddhanature.
The analogy doesn't work with this, Malcolm. This only works with what you know already and buddhanature is not in that category. I think what you are referring to is a state of mind. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that, but I don't agree that it is buddhanature. Many people experience kensho, glimpses, awakenings of all sorts. I'm not negating these kinds of experiences, they are states of mind.

Sorry for the capitalization. It wasn't meant to represent something special.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Malcolm »

Anonymous X wrote: I think what you are referring to is a state of mind.
No. Definitely not.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Anonymous X »

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: I think what you are referring to is a state of mind.
No. Definitely not.
OK.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by aflatun »

Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

What exactly do you think "buddhanature" is?
I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
Malcolm:

In Dzogchen, is it correct to say that buddha nature refers to the dharmata of the mind?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by Malcolm »

aflatun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: I've always liked the expression of 'suchness' or 'thusness'. How would I go about explaining something that is not knowable as an experience? I don't think we need to explain it, or search for it. It seems you can only point to experience, not to what is not experienced.
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
Malcolm:

In Dzogchen, is it correct to say that buddha nature refers to the dharmata of the mind?
You can say that.
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by aflatun »

Malcolm wrote:
aflatun wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
Malcolm:

In Dzogchen, is it correct to say that buddha nature refers to the dharmata of the mind?
You can say that.
Thank you, good enough for me for... now. I need to read your book (on my to do list) before I further embarrass myself :tongue:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: Freedom From Buddha Nature by Thanissaro Bhikkhu & Zen Master Dogen

Post by PuerAzaelis »

Malcolm wrote:Why do you insist that buddhanature is not knowable as an experience? Perhaps it is because you have never the experience of buddhanature?
How could it be an experience when cessation is the end of the aggregates? What is left to have any experience?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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