Kensho and remaining lifetimes

User avatar
ojo
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:19 am

Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by ojo » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:13 pm

If a genuine kensho experience occurs does that imply anything about the number of remaining future rebirths or is that a non-issue because kensho only happens to bodhisatvas who will be coming back regardless until all sentient beings are also enlightened?
:sage:
Can someone experience kensho in one life and then become as hopelessly lost in future lives as they were in the lives preceding kensho?

Matylda
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Matylda » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:05 am

ojo wrote:If a genuine kensho experience occurs does that imply anything about the number of remaining future rebirths or is that a non-issue because kensho only happens to bodhisatvas who will be coming back regardless until all sentient beings are also enlightened?
:sage:
Can someone experience kensho in one life and then become as hopelessly lost in future lives as they were in the lives preceding kensho?
If it is treu kensho not only just a glimpse there is no more issue of future life. And of course as it follows there cannot be any hoplessness in the future.

User avatar
ojo
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:19 am

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by ojo » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:11 pm

about 20 years ago I was sitting quietly waiting for something and a chance sound from outside (a baby starting to cry) initiated something like a lightning bolt out of my chest - an immense energy comprised of what seemed like a million breaking human hearts. This was instantly met with an equally (or even stronger) energy of what I can only call "pure love" resulting in the two fusing incandescently together. This went on for about 10 or 15 minutes while tears ran continuously but silently down my face. It seemed "I" was merely the physical address at which a "god" chose to have their experience. It was so profound but so solidly peaceful I really can't describe it even to myself.

Later at dinner a woman who had her own kensho acknowledged years earlier by some famous woman Zen master (whose name I forget) acknowledged mine (in a Zen mondo kind of way). Years later a Tibetan "geshe" I knew told me "that only has to happen once" in response to my narration of the experience. I never went to any "real" Zen master to have the experience verified. What do you think? Was that "real" kensho 20 years ago?

Jesse
Posts: 1726
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Jesse » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:07 pm

I'd say no, this wasn't kensho, or if it was.. it was perhaps a small kensho. It sound's similar to the experience one can attain by correctly doing loving-kindness meditation. I can't speak authoritatively on the subject, but kensho should include a first-hand understanding of emptiness. A direct experience of the emptiness of self/phenomena.

What you experienced sounds like a very nice experience, and perhaps some amount of wisdom was gained from it. I do not, however, believe it was kensho.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

User avatar
ojo
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:19 am

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by ojo » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:35 pm

Jesse wrote: A direct experience of the emptiness of self/phenomena.
oh that ... happens any time we care to look into it - there is really nothing there to see and no one there to see it - just the seeing itself which is without beginning or end - "vast emptiness, nothing holy, blah blah..."

this can be particularly clear in the sleep state and in NDE - inseparable from diffuse white light with no here or there. Ordinarily it seems suffused with peace & joy like a background noise that never stops but can be brought into focus. Very rarely there is absolute nullity - nobody, no universe, no God, absolute nothing about which no one can say a single word, period. That only happened once, so far anyway.

apart from this (but inseparable from it) there doesn't seem to be much else to "normal life" but subsequent thoughts assuming what previous thoughts implied! <--- my definition & explanation of samsara

:roll:

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:31 am

ojo wrote:
Jesse wrote: A direct experience of the emptiness of self/phenomena.
oh that ... happens any time we care to look into it - there is really nothing there to see and no one there to see it - just the seeing itself which is without beginning or end - "vast emptiness, nothing holy, blah blah..."

this can be particularly clear in the sleep state and in NDE - inseparable from diffuse white light with no here or there. Ordinarily it seems suffused with peace & joy like a background noise that never stops but can be brought into focus. Very rarely there is absolute nullity - nobody, no universe, no God, absolute nothing about which no one can say a single word, period. That only happened once, so far anyway.

apart from this (but inseparable from it) there doesn't seem to be much else to "normal life" but subsequent thoughts assuming what previous thoughts implied! <--- my definition & explanation of samsara

:roll:
Oh that, seems to describe an intellectual understanding, but not the absence of the discursive mind, no thought. The experiencer is still very much active when there is experience. Is there any experience when the experiencer is absent?

User avatar
ojo
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:19 am

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by ojo » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:42 am

Anonymous X wrote:[
Oh that, seems to describe an intellectual understanding, but not the absence of the discursive mind, no thought. The experiencer is still very much active when there is experience. Is there any experience when the experiencer is absent?
pretty good intellectual understanding - thanks

Jesse
Posts: 1726
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Jesse » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:23 am

ojo wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:[
Oh that, seems to describe an intellectual understanding, but not the absence of the discursive mind, no thought. The experiencer is still very much active when there is experience. Is there any experience when the experiencer is absent?
pretty good intellectual understanding - thanks
When you experience a lack of discursive mind, it's a very distinct experience. You clearly see that everything in the mind is a fantasy, you directly see how the clinging, aversive nature of the discursive mind creates this illusory reality we call samsara. Even this direct experience is recursive, meaning it's not permanent.

On the Bodhisattva path, we pass through a number of stages called Bhumi's, which are degrees of greater understanding, and wisdom. We can regress from these up until a certain Bhumi, however, I can not recall which one at the moment.

This forum is filled with practitioners, we are not masters, nor teachers, and you should expect our answers to your question to reflect such. If you wish to have a conversation of greater depth, then you should find a teacher, and ask them what you wish to know.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:29 am

Jesse wrote:
ojo wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:[
Oh that, seems to describe an intellectual understanding, but not the absence of the discursive mind, no thought. The experiencer is still very much active when there is experience. Is there any experience when the experiencer is absent?
pretty good intellectual understanding - thanks
When you experience a lack of discursive mind, it's a very distinct experience. You clearly see that everything in the mind is a fantasy, you directly see how the clinging, aversive nature of the discursive mind creates this illusory reality we call samsara. Even this direct experience is recursive, meaning it's not permanent.

On the Bodhisattva path, we pass through a number of stages called Bhumi's, which are degrees of greater understanding, and wisdom. We can regress from these up until a certain Bhumi, however, I can not recall which one at the moment.

This forum is filled with practitioners, we are not masters, nor teachers, and you should expect our answers to your question to reflect such. If you wish to have a conversation of greater depth, then you should find a teacher, and ask them what you wish to know.
You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything. The insight is only intellectual and doesn't have anything to do with bhumis or stages. This is a fantasy that has been told for millenia.

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:30 am

ojo wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:[
Oh that, seems to describe an intellectual understanding, but not the absence of the discursive mind, no thought. The experiencer is still very much active when there is experience. Is there any experience when the experiencer is absent?
pretty good intellectual understanding - thanks
To think of it as anything else would be a mistake. And, yes, I have made it many times and continue to do so.

Jesse
Posts: 1726
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Jesse » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:03 am

Anonymous X wrote:You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything. The insight is only intellectual and doesn't have anything to do with bhumis or stages. This is a fantasy that has been told for millenia.
You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain from trying to teach, as you are very obviously not qualified to do so.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:38 pm

Jesse wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything. The insight is only intellectual and doesn't have anything to do with bhumis or stages. This is a fantasy that has been told for millenia.
You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain from trying to teach, as you are very obviously not qualified to do so.
What bugs you about what I said? Am I not qualified to comment on such things? What are the qualifications, please?

User avatar
ojo
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:19 am

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by ojo » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:08 pm

Anonymous X wrote:You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything.
this reminds me of this ...
ojo wrote: Very rarely there is absolute nullity - nobody, no universe, no God, absolute nothing about which no one can say a single word, period. That only happened once, so far anyway.
is this what they call a "path moment" in Bangkok? like the totality "reboots" , self / world / sensation / understanding / EVERYTHING is just software and a path moment is like the operating system rebooting. In the first moment AFTER there was absolute certainty that "it" was complete - no thing , no possible thing could be outside "it" but you are right there is no "thing" there and no "experiencer". Is that what you mean?

are you a Vipassana meditator? are you a Sotopanna? Sakadagami? Anāgāmi?

Jesse
Posts: 1726
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Jesse » Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:29 pm

Anonymous X wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything. The insight is only intellectual and doesn't have anything to do with bhumis or stages. This is a fantasy that has been told for millenia.
You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain from trying to teach, as you are very obviously not qualified to do so.
What bugs you about what I said? Am I not qualified to comment on such things? What are the qualifications, please?
It's alarmingly obvious. The qualifications? At least knowing what you are talking about for a starter. I don't really feel like going in depth on why trying to invalidate a statement by means of ultimate truth is ignorant, nor why imagining you know whether or not someone's understanding is intellectual or not is just plain arrogant. Then claiming the system of Bhumi's which is taught in almost the entirety of Mahayana is a fantasy.

I mean.. Come on.
The cost of a thing is the amount of what I call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run.
-Henry David Thoreau

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:41 am

ojo wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything.
this reminds me of this ...
ojo wrote: Very rarely there is absolute nullity - nobody, no universe, no God, absolute nothing about which no one can say a single word, period. That only happened once, so far anyway.
is this what they call a "path moment" in Bangkok? like the totality "reboots" , self / world / sensation / understanding / EVERYTHING is just software and a path moment is like the operating system rebooting. In the first moment AFTER there was absolute certainty that "it" was complete - no thing , no possible thing could be outside "it" but you are right there is no "thing" there and no "experiencer". Is that what you mean?

are you a Vipassana meditator? are you a Sotopanna? Sakadagami? Anāgāmi?
Ojo, I'm not sure what a 'path moment' is, but the idea you present seems close to what I said. To live without an experiencer from moment to moment is no doubt rare and seems impossible to attain through any practice. Some kind of reboot seems to be involved. This will go against what 99.9% of all spiritual seekers believe.

amanitamusc
Posts: 1335
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:43 am

Jesse wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything. The insight is only intellectual and doesn't have anything to do with bhumis or stages. This is a fantasy that has been told for millenia.
You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain from trying to teach, as you are very obviously not qualified to do so.
:good:

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:47 am

ojo wrote: are you a Vipassana meditator? are you a Sotopanna? Sakadagami? Anāgāmi?
None of the above. I sit daily and my kinship is with Chan. My main teacher was not a Buddhist. Bangkok is pretty devoid of anything other than Theravada.

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:48 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Jesse wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:You have never experienced an 'absence' of discursive mind and will not as there is not anyone there to experience anything. The insight is only intellectual and doesn't have anything to do with bhumis or stages. This is a fantasy that has been told for millenia.
You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain from trying to teach, as you are very obviously not qualified to do so.
:good:
Another fan! I agree 100%.

amanitamusc
Posts: 1335
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:56 am

Anonymous X wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:
Jesse wrote:
You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. Please refrain from trying to teach, as you are very obviously not qualified to do so.
:good:
Another fan! I agree 100%.
I am not a fan of yours,You really should stop.

Anonymous X
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:43 am
Location: Bangkok

Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Mon Jun 05, 2017 4:59 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
amanitamusc wrote: :good:
Another fan! I agree 100%.
I am not a fan of yours,You really should stop.
I was referring to you agreeing with the other poster and my lack of qualifications.

Post Reply

Return to “Zen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests