Kensho and remaining lifetimes

amanitamusc
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:07 am

Anonymous X wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Another fan! I agree 100%.
I am not a fan of yours,You really should stop.
I was referring to you agreeing with the other poster and my lack of qualifications.
Now that's funny.Carry on then.

Dharma Flower
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Dharma Flower » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:00 am

When a Zen master attains satori or kensho, I basically see that as equivalent to attaining Nirvana, which then must be further cultivated in order to attain full Buddhahood.

Dharma Flower
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Dharma Flower » Thu Jun 22, 2017 11:07 am

I could be entirely wrong on the meaning of kensho and satori.

Anonymous X
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:13 am

Dharma Flower wrote:I could be entirely wrong on the meaning of kensho and satori.
How will you know if you've never experienced either? Why speculate about all of this? This is not about conceptualization, but direct experience.

Dharma Flower
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Dharma Flower » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:23 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:I could be entirely wrong on the meaning of kensho and satori.
How will you know if you've never experienced either? Why speculate about all of this? This is not about conceptualization, but direct experience.
I like to read books by Zen masters to get some insight on these things, like The Essence of Zen by Sekkei Harada.

Anonymous X
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:49 pm

Dharma Flower wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:
Dharma Flower wrote:I could be entirely wrong on the meaning of kensho and satori.
How will you know if you've never experienced either? Why speculate about all of this? This is not about conceptualization, but direct experience.
I like to read books by Zen masters to get some insight on these things, like The Essence of Zen by Sekkei Harada.
Reading is good but you have to engage in the sitting practice to go past the words and to be present to your own nature.

Tuybachau
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Tuybachau » Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:03 am

Anonymous X wrote:This is not about conceptualization, but direct experience.
Experiences are experienced with the sense bases (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, intellect/mind) and corresponding sense objects. They are consciousnesses conditioned by conditions and hence impermanent, empty.

Enlightenment is not an experience or experiences (whether intellectual conceptualization or seeing or hearing..). 

Seeking/desiring an experience or experiences is ignorant.

Anonymous X
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:04 am

Tuybachau wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:This is not about conceptualization, but direct experience.
Experiences are experienced with the sense bases (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, intellect/mind) and corresponding sense objects. They are consciousnesses conditioned by conditions and hence impermanent, empty.

Enlightenment is not an experience or experiences (whether intellectual conceptualization or seeing or hearing..). 

Seeking/desiring an experience or experiences is ignorant.
I am not talking about enlightenment. Kensho is not enlightenment, in my view. I am using the term 'direct experience' to point to your original nature which is free of the dualistic notions of self and phenomenon. Even if it is an intellectual insight, it is still useful for the practitioner. If it is more than an intellectual insight, it is what can be called 'a primordial experience', which often shakes the foundation of the narration of self and provides a different basis for contemplation. This is what is more in line with Zongmi's view of sudden awakening followed by step by step practice.

Regarding enlightenment, how can we describe something that is not an experience? It cannot be the result of experience or caused by anything. I will leave this for the philosophers to haggle over.

Tuybachau
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Tuybachau » Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:25 am

Anonymous X wrote: Regarding enlightenment, how can we describe something that is not an experience? It cannot be the result of experience or caused by anything. I will leave this for the philosophers to haggle over.
Then do not describe, do not practice, do not try to attain. 
That is called the practice of no practice 行無行,修無修

Anonymous X
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:40 am

Tuybachau wrote:
Anonymous X wrote: Regarding enlightenment, how can we describe something that is not an experience? It cannot be the result of experience or caused by anything. I will leave this for the philosophers to haggle over.
Then do not describe, do not practice, do not try to attain. 
That is called the practice of no practice 行無行,修無修
Yes, something like that. I'm not trying to name it.

Tuybachau
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Re: Kensho and remaining lifetimes

Post by Tuybachau » Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:10 am

Anonymous X wrote:
Regarding enlightenment,.. It cannot be.. caused by anything.
- Anything which arises will cease.
- Without arising there is no ceasing.
- Any achievable, attainable, practicable thing arises and ceases. Ultimately, actually there is no such thing.
- Beginning with the unborn and ending with the unborn, original enlightenment/buddha nature/enlightenment nature, are what the practice of no practice 行無行行、修無修修 is about. Ultimately, actually there is no beginning and ending but the unborn is there/here. That is the practice of stop seeking, stop desiring, stop becoming. That is the further shore. That is cessation.
- The right seed/cause gives the right fruit/result.

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