Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

DGA
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:48 pm

Lindama wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:54 am
walk in my shoes... then, tell me that. As far as I know in zen, ordinary mind is not judgemental mind.... not even close
Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:02 am
Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind
These were taught by the Buddha in sutras such as the Sutra of the Teaching of Akshayamati and the Sutra of the Questions of the Naga King Anavatapta. They are commented upon in works such as Asanga's Stages of Spiritual Practice.
Hi Lindama,

I must admit I'm a bit confused by your post. Two questions for you:

What is the difference between "ordinary mind" and "judgmental mind"? It seems to me that judgement is something that the ordinary mind does all day long: like and dislike, hope and fear, attraction and aversion...

I also don't understand what it is about Bruce's post that you disagree with.

Thanks in advance for setting me straight.

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bokki
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by bokki » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:47 am

Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind
i have no idea who thinks what of this
but ill go trough it 4 u
"rely on.."
"do not rely on anything.."
what a bunch of confused ideas..
meaning, real meaning, wisdom mind..

LOL cant u just keep it simple?
lol philosophers!
think it up!
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
Zen Space Forum

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Lindama
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Lindama » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:33 am

DGA, don't know if I can "set you straight"... all I can try to do is tell you what I see. I hope I can articulate this....

first point, really the only point, since everything follows this. In zen, ordinary mind is not associated with what we would call ordinary in this so-called samsaric everyday world. This is not a belief, it must be felt. So, as I said below: "ordinary mind is not judgemental mind... not even close." Ordinary in zen is not related to being an ordinary Joe with ordinary bias and opinions just like everybody else. That idea is egoic in priding itself in it's universal delusion... like a club. it's all sorting in the mind. Look at the sorting in the quote below. even wisdom, tho I prefer it, is a form of sorting.

Ordinary mind in zen sinks into the immediacy, the intimacy, the suchness of life, of things just as they are. Ordinariness which doesn't move the mind into separation, into sorting thru what I like and don't like.... just like a walk in the woods when there is nothing to throw us into duality.
I've begun to forget the zennisms about this except "ordinary mind is the way".... thus you get my articulation above. But, I can never forget the heart opening of ordinary mind. it's not free from thought necessarily, it is free from separation, thus our story about it. So ordinary mind doesn't rely on separations such as meaning or words, teacher or message. If anything, wisdom mind is ordinary mind.... but saying it makes it irrelevant.

best I can do... one can walk in my shoes and/or see it clearly for one's self. preferably the latter... the former is just an invitation.

linda

DGA wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:48 pm
Lindama wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:54 am
walk in my shoes... then, tell me that. As far as I know in zen, ordinary mind is not judgemental mind.... not even close
Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:02 am
Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind
These were taught by the Buddha in sutras such as the Sutra of the Teaching of Akshayamati and the Sutra of the Questions of the Naga King Anavatapta. They are commented upon in works such as Asanga's Stages of Spiritual Practice.
Hi Lindama,

I must admit I'm a bit confused by your post. Two questions for you:

What is the difference between "ordinary mind" and "judgmental mind"? It seems to me that judgement is something that the ordinary mind does all day long: like and dislike, hope and fear, attraction and aversion...

I also don't understand what it is about Bruce's post that you disagree with.

Thanks in advance for setting me straight.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Lindama
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Lindama » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:59 am

if that doesn't do it for you.... bokki said it all.... "keep it simple"

several eons ago when I was in hi-tech.... it was known as the KISS principle... keep it simple stupid. if only I had heard it then :tongue:
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:13 am

There's relative mind, then there's the ultimate nature of relative mind.

Anyway, I think one can come at it from teacher or lineage, or even simply from the basic approach, felt on a visceral level...removed from credential or lineage.

Personally for me the biggest thing was questioning and ultimately giving up on all my Dharma "shoulds", once I did that things really opened up, I found a teacher, had a fair number of doubts resolved, etc.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:28 am

Astus wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:21 pm
Meido wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:03 am
Is this controversial?
No. Thank you for the clarification.
Second that.

Also agree with Lindama’s clarification on ordinary mind.

:namaste:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

zhufawuwo
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by zhufawuwo » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:28 am

Such a useful thread. Thank you to Meido Roshi and all the others who have chimed in.

It's very difficult for me not to get attached to Big Concepts like Traditions or Lineages or Practices and project my own expectations and desires. The self and its workings are so strong. :crazy:

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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Matylda » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:18 pm

Meido wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:26 am

Dragged.

Basically (and vis a vis the other thread where this was raised): beginning Dharma practitioners commonly seek out specific practice methods, lineages, styles, schools, cultural aspects, ideal environments, etc. that they find fascinating. In some cases their attraction to these things has roots that may be valid and deep. But in many cases, it is largely just due to their own self-referential and irrelevant notions, romanticizing, fears, comforts, and so on.

It doesn't make sense to seek out lineages, methods, styles and so on, and certainly not to choose a teacher based on them. This is because the path is actualized within human relationship with a teacher with whom one shares affinity. One should therefore just seek one's shisho, the teacher (of any tradition) with whom one has deep affinity, and take that relationship as the foundation of one's path and the source of lineages, methods, and the rest. To seek a teacher based on those things rather than affinity is exactly backwards.

In Zen this ties into what is meant by "transmission outside the scriptures, not dependent on words and letters": the lifeblood of the path is realized within face to face human relationship, that is, within the ba ("field") of the teacher. It is also related to what is meant by "direct pointing at the mind" as the function of the teacher.

Actually today I experienced an example of this kind of thing. Since Korinji will be done in the spring and our first extended retreat period will begin, i've been reviewing applications from interested persons. One of these applicants let me know today that he's actually sent applications to several Zen places simultaneously. I told him I wished I'd known that earlier, as it would have made things easier: I'd have just told him to go elsewhere.

The reason is that it means to me he is not seeking relationship with a teacher and community in order to actualize Zen. He is not engaged in the careful, patient process of examining a teacher to see if there is affinity. He is just seeking *MONASTERY*, as he imagines such places must be. In other words, he is seeking a place or environment, not a teacher.

~ Meido
I just saw this subject, did not see it for any reason.

Yes, I can only cmpletely agree with Meido. Teacher is the point, nothing else. The lineage, may be famous and grand, but if it lacks good teacher now it is only a legend.
Great masters who had appeared in the past were great not because of the lineage, but because of their personal effort and greatness. A techer may be a layman, could be monastic, may live in very obscure conditions or in a grand and impressive monastery. I hav seen may many places both in Japan and in China, which had great history, but are actually dead, living only due to their legend, but what is their main concern is money, visitors, tourists and pilgrims. But there is no spirit of living being, who can guide.

A few teachers I had met who were out of the mainstream, some living in bad conditions, small houses, and no students... or almost no students. But still they were exemplary practitioners in the sense of realisation. It is what is really important in zen practice and zen way.

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