Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

DGA
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by DGA » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:48 pm

Lindama wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:54 am
walk in my shoes... then, tell me that. As far as I know in zen, ordinary mind is not judgemental mind.... not even close
Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:02 am
Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind
These were taught by the Buddha in sutras such as the Sutra of the Teaching of Akshayamati and the Sutra of the Questions of the Naga King Anavatapta. They are commented upon in works such as Asanga's Stages of Spiritual Practice.
Hi Lindama,

I must admit I'm a bit confused by your post. Two questions for you:

What is the difference between "ordinary mind" and "judgmental mind"? It seems to me that judgement is something that the ordinary mind does all day long: like and dislike, hope and fear, attraction and aversion...

I also don't understand what it is about Bruce's post that you disagree with.

Thanks in advance for setting me straight.

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bokki
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by bokki » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:47 am

Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind
i have no idea who thinks what of this
but ill go trough it 4 u
"rely on.."
"do not rely on anything.."
what a bunch of confused ideas..
meaning, real meaning, wisdom mind..

LOL cant u just keep it simple?
lol philosophers!
think it up!
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
Zen Space Forum

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Lindama
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Lindama » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:33 am

DGA, don't know if I can "set you straight"... all I can try to do is tell you what I see. I hope I can articulate this....

first point, really the only point, since everything follows this. In zen, ordinary mind is not associated with what we would call ordinary in this so-called samsaric everyday world. This is not a belief, it must be felt. So, as I said below: "ordinary mind is not judgemental mind... not even close." Ordinary in zen is not related to being an ordinary Joe with ordinary bias and opinions just like everybody else. That idea is egoic in priding itself in it's universal delusion... like a club. it's all sorting in the mind. Look at the sorting in the quote below. even wisdom, tho I prefer it, is a form of sorting.

Ordinary mind in zen sinks into the immediacy, the intimacy, the suchness of life, of things just as they are. Ordinariness which doesn't move the mind into separation, into sorting thru what I like and don't like.... just like a walk in the woods when there is nothing to throw us into duality.
I've begun to forget the zennisms about this except "ordinary mind is the way".... thus you get my articulation above. But, I can never forget the heart opening of ordinary mind. it's not free from thought necessarily, it is free from separation, thus our story about it. So ordinary mind doesn't rely on separations such as meaning or words, teacher or message. If anything, wisdom mind is ordinary mind.... but saying it makes it irrelevant.

best I can do... one can walk in my shoes and/or see it clearly for one's self. preferably the latter... the former is just an invitation.

linda

DGA wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:48 pm
Lindama wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:54 am
walk in my shoes... then, tell me that. As far as I know in zen, ordinary mind is not judgemental mind.... not even close
Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:02 am
Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgemental mind
These were taught by the Buddha in sutras such as the Sutra of the Teaching of Akshayamati and the Sutra of the Questions of the Naga King Anavatapta. They are commented upon in works such as Asanga's Stages of Spiritual Practice.
Hi Lindama,

I must admit I'm a bit confused by your post. Two questions for you:

What is the difference between "ordinary mind" and "judgmental mind"? It seems to me that judgement is something that the ordinary mind does all day long: like and dislike, hope and fear, attraction and aversion...

I also don't understand what it is about Bruce's post that you disagree with.

Thanks in advance for setting me straight.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Lindama
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Lindama » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:59 am

if that doesn't do it for you.... bokki said it all.... "keep it simple"

several eons ago when I was in hi-tech.... it was known as the KISS principle... keep it simple stupid. if only I had heard it then :tongue:
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:13 am

There's relative mind, then there's the ultimate nature of relative mind.

Anyway, I think one can come at it from teacher or lineage, or even simply from the basic approach, felt on a visceral level...removed from credential or lineage.

Personally for me the biggest thing was questioning and ultimately giving up on all my Dharma "shoulds", once I did that things really opened up, I found a teacher, had a fair number of doubts resolved, etc.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Dont follow a lineage (etc.), follow a teacher

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:28 am

Astus wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:21 pm
Meido wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:03 am
Is this controversial?
No. Thank you for the clarification.
Second that.

Also agree with Lindama’s clarification on ordinary mind.

:namaste:
In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few ~ Suzuki-roshi

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