Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

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Bruce
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Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:15 pm

Does anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice? Is there anything you can read on this great master in English?

Regards

Bruce

White Lotus
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by White Lotus » Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:57 pm

I know Siddharta, another Indian name, he's one of the Best Zen teachers around. Quite difficult initially to get hold of. Harder to meet. Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Bruce
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:51 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:57 pm
I know Siddharta, another Indian name, he's one of the Best Zen teachers around. Quite difficult initially to get hold of. Harder to meet. Tom.
Indeed. If one still believe there is a self to receive teaching and a Buddha to give teaching, it would surely hard to meet the real Siddharta ( Buddha nature). :D

However, I am trying to learn more about this Vinitaruci to gain better perspective on Zen Buddhism methodology . Vinitaruci is not indian, he was from Oodiyana where Padmasambava from.

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by crazy-man » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:37 am

Vinītaruci
Vinītaruci (毘尼多流支, ?–594) means subdued pleasure (滅喜). He was born in the sixth century, in southern India. In 574, the sixth year of the Taijian (太建) years of the Chen Dynasty (557–89, the last of the four Southern Dynasties), he went to Chang-an (長安), China, in search of the Dharma. He met Sengcan (僧璨, dates unknown), the third patriarch of the Chan School, in Ye County (鄴縣), Hunan Province, who imparted to him the Mind Seal and commanded him to go to southern China to deliver the multitudes.
He then went down south to Guangdong Province and became the abbot of the Zhizhie Temple (制止寺) in the city of Guangzhou (廣州). There he translated, from Sanskrit into Chinese, the Mahāyāna Vaipulya Sūtra of Total Retention (T09n0275) and the Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of the Elephant Head Ashram (T14n0466).
In 580, the twelfth year of the Taijian years, Vinītaruci went to northern Vietnam and became the abbot of the Fayun Temple (法雲寺). He started his Vinītaruci Chan School and propagated the Dharma in Vietnam for over ten years until his death in 594, during the Sui Dynasty (581–619). His teachings included that true suchness and Buddha nature are never born and never die and that all sentient beings have the same nature of true suchness. The Vinītaruci Chan School prospered in Vietnam for over six hundred years. His disciple Faxian (法賢, ?–626) was the first patriarch, who successively passed the lineage down to Yishan (依山, ?–1216). Then this Chan School declined into obscurity.
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/translato ... kumarajiva
http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... 4%ABtaruci

The Birth of Vietnam, page 155-158
https://books.google.de/books?id=rCl_02 ... ci&f=false

The History of Buddhism in Vietnam, page 55-62
https://books.google.de/books?id=tUN8tC ... ci&f=false

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Temicco » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:52 am

Take any stories from Vietnamese Zen with a heaping pile of salt. The early Thien tradition has a particularly bad track record as far as blatant fraud is concerned
"It is just a matter of never letting there be even a moment's interruption in your awareness of your real nature."
--Yuanwu Keqin

"As long as you let go and entrust with belief, your daily life itself can be meditation."
--Daehaeng Kun Sunim

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Astus » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:21 pm

Temicco wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:52 am
The early Thien tradition has a particularly bad track record as far as blatant fraud is concerned
Do you know any tradition with a good record?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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bokki
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by bokki » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:02 pm

Do you know any tradition with a good record?
NO, i do not
its like a magnet
u have + and -
same magnet, two poles
as buddhists we tend an turn to +
its good, tho, to know,
i wonder if in this question
a middle ground is even possible
maybe its dynamic?

i hope my sisters tradition has a good record..LOLOL

but, very good question.
thnx astus
b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
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Temicco
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Temicco » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:25 am

Astus wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:21 pm
Temicco wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:52 am
The early Thien tradition has a particularly bad track record as far as blatant fraud is concerned
Do you know any tradition with a good record?
Good point; certainly not overall, but some areas are more clearly faked than others. I should thus definitely rephrase my statement to "certain texts in the early Thien tradition have a particularly bad track record...". e.g. some of the biographies coming from the sources preserved in the Thien Uyen Tap Anh are copied basically wholesale from the Jingde chuandeng lu, which is much more clearly fabricated than e.g. the encounter dialogues of Tang dynasty teachers that appear for the first time in the Jingde chuandeng lu. But you're right; early Seon has similar problems, as does Soto, as does early Chan...

I haven't yet seen any problematization of the Otokan lineage's transmission, I gotta say. Have you found any? The only thing is that I don't know if there are any Chinese sources that corroborate his receiving transmission from Xutang.
"It is just a matter of never letting there be even a moment's interruption in your awareness of your real nature."
--Yuanwu Keqin

"As long as you let go and entrust with belief, your daily life itself can be meditation."
--Daehaeng Kun Sunim

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by SunWuKong » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:15 am

Bruce wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:15 pm
Does anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice? Is there anything you can read on this great master in English?

Regards

Bruce
No idea, digging into wikipedia, you can find his teachers name, his teacher's teacher (Bodhidharma), his followers, their activities. Various footnotes on texts in English, but not much on this guy himself. It is interesting question, clearly Dhyana/Chan/Zen/Thien has a very old track record going back into India. :thinking:
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:48 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:15 am
Bruce wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:15 pm
Does anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice? Is there anything you can read on this great master in English?

Regards

Bruce
No idea, digging into wikipedia, you can find his teachers name, his teacher's teacher (Bodhidharma), his followers, their activities. Various footnotes on texts in English, but not much on this guy himself. It is interesting question, clearly Dhyana/Chan/Zen/Thien has a very old track record going back into India. :thinking:
Exactly. I am trying to collect Zen Literature from pre-HUI NENG era to learn what Zen was like back in India. There were also many methods of ZEN was lost after the rise of HUI NENG's schools . Not much Text survived. One thing that would be really interesting is ZONG MI's writings and collection of the older pre HUI NENG ZEN schools; however, these writings was lost in wars. That is why I am trying to find literature outside Chinese language regarding ZEN in hoping something older would have survived.

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Meido » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:22 am

Temicco wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:25 am
The only thing is that I don't know if there are any Chinese sources that corroborate his receiving transmission from Xutang.
Not sure about Chinese sources, but I had thought the transmission verse actually given to Daio Kokushi by Xutang (famously prophesying that Xutang's descendants would increase beyond the Eastern Sea) still exists, I assume at Daitoku-ji?

~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:46 am

Meido wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:22 am
Temicco wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:25 am
The only thing is that I don't know if there are any Chinese sources that corroborate his receiving transmission from Xutang.
Not sure about Chinese sources, but I had thought the transmission verse actually given to Daio Kokushi by Xutang (famously prophesying that Xutang's descendants would increase beyond the Eastern Sea) still exists, I assume at Daitoku-ji?

~ Meido
Different lineage. I think Xutang is under Rinzai school , is it? Vinitaruci was a student of Sengcan. His teaching is an older Zen traditional( around 600 years). But I am generally interested in ZEN outside China.

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Meido » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:55 am

Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:46 am
Different lineage. I think Xutang is under Rinzai school , is it?
Yes, as an aside Temicco had asked about the transmission of the Otokan lineage (Xutang to Daio).

But you're correct that I'm straying from the topic at hand, apologies.

~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:18 am

Meido wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:55 am
Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:46 am
Different lineage. I think Xutang is under Rinzai school , is it?
Yes, as an aside Temicco had asked about the transmission of the Otokan lineage (Xutang to Daio).

But you're correct that it's straying from the topic at hand...

~ Meido
Besides reading a bunch of ZEN books, I don't know much about the actual ZEN practice. Intellectual knowledge has nothing to do with Buddhahood. Out of curiosity, If you don't mind me asking what would you normally practice in Otokan Lineage? Hua Tou? śamatha-vipaśyanā?

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by SunWuKong » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:56 am

Bruce wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:15 pm
Does anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice? Is there anything you can read on this great master in English?

Regards

Bruce
Vinītaruci (毘尼多流支, ?–594) means subdued pleasure (滅喜). He was born in the sixth century, in southern India.

In 574, the sixth year of the Taijian (太建) years of the Chen Dynasty (557–89, the last of the four Southern Dynasties), he went to Chang-an (長安), China, in search of the Dharma.

He met Sengcan (僧璨, dates unknown), the third Patriarch of the Chan School, in Ye County (鄴縣), Hunan Province, who imparted to him the Mind Seal and commanded him to go to southern China to deliver the multitudes.


He then went down south to Guangdong Province and became the abbot of the Zhizhie Temple (制止寺) in the city of Guangzhou (廣州).

There he translated, from Sanskrit into Chinese, the Mahāyāna Vaipulya Sūtra of Total Retention (T09n0275) and The Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of the Elephant Head Ashram (T14n0466).


In 580, the twelfth year of the Taijian years, Vinītaruci went to northern Vietnam and became the abbot of the Fayun Temple (法雲寺).

He started his Vinītaruci Chan School and propagated the Dharma in Vietnam for over ten years until his Death in 594, during the Sui Dynasty (581–619).

His teachings included that true suchness and Buddha nature are never born and never die and that all Sentient beings have the same nature of true suchness.

The Vinītaruci Chan School prospered in Vietnam for over six hundred years.

His Disciple Faxian (法賢, ?–626) was the first Patriarch, who successively passed the lineage down to Yishan (依山, ?–1216). Then this Chan School declined into obscurity.
Source



http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... 4%ABtaruci


Vinītaruci

Vinītaruci (毘尼多流支, ?–594) means subdued pleasure (滅喜). He was born in the sixth century, in southern India. In 574, the sixth year of the Taijian (太建) years of the Chen Dynasty (557–89, the last of the four Southern Dynasties), he went to Chang-an (長安), China, in search of the Dharma. He met Sengcan (僧璨, dates unknown), the third patriarch of the Chan School, in Ye County (鄴縣), Hunan Province, who imparted to him the Mind Seal and commanded him to go to southern China to deliver the multitudes.
He then went down south to Guangdong Province and became the abbot of the Zhizhie Temple (制止寺) in the city of Guangzhou (廣州). There he translated, from Sanskrit into Chinese, the Mahāyāna Vaipulya Sūtra of Total Retention (T09n0275) and the Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of the Elephant Head Ashram (T14n0466).
In 580, the twelfth year of the Taijian years, Vinītaruci went to northern Vietnam and became the abbot of the Fayun Temple (法雲寺). He started his Vinītaruci Chan School and propagated the Dharma in Vietnam for over ten years until his death in 594, during the Sui Dynasty (581–619). His teachings included that true suchness and Buddha nature are never born and never die and that all sentient beings have the same nature of true suchness. The Vinītaruci Chan School prospered in Vietnam for over six hundred years. His disciple Faxian (法賢, ?–626) was the first patriarch, who successively passed the lineage down to Yishan (依山, ?–1216). Then this Chan School declined into obscurity.

www.sutrasmantras.info

"His teachings included that true suchness and Buddha nature are never born and never die and that all sentient beings have the same nature of true suchness."
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

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Bruce
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:43 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:56 am
Bruce wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 7:15 pm
Does anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice? Is there anything you can read on this great master in English?

Regards

Bruce
Vinītaruci (毘尼多流支, ?–594) means subdued pleasure (滅喜). He was born in the sixth century, in southern India.

In 574, the sixth year of the Taijian (太建) years of the Chen Dynasty (557–89, the last of the four Southern Dynasties), he went to Chang-an (長安), China, in search of the Dharma.

He met Sengcan (僧璨, dates unknown), the third Patriarch of the Chan School, in Ye County (鄴縣), Hunan Province, who imparted to him the Mind Seal and commanded him to go to southern China to deliver the multitudes.


He then went down south to Guangdong Province and became the abbot of the Zhizhie Temple (制止寺) in the city of Guangzhou (廣州).

There he translated, from Sanskrit into Chinese, the Mahāyāna Vaipulya Sūtra of Total Retention (T09n0275) and The Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of the Elephant Head Ashram (T14n0466).


In 580, the twelfth year of the Taijian years, Vinītaruci went to northern Vietnam and became the abbot of the Fayun Temple (法雲寺).

He started his Vinītaruci Chan School and propagated the Dharma in Vietnam for over ten years until his Death in 594, during the Sui Dynasty (581–619).

His teachings included that true suchness and Buddha nature are never born and never die and that all Sentient beings have the same nature of true suchness.

The Vinītaruci Chan School prospered in Vietnam for over six hundred years.

His Disciple Faxian (法賢, ?–626) was the first Patriarch, who successively passed the lineage down to Yishan (依山, ?–1216). Then this Chan School declined into obscurity.
Source



http://www.chinabuddhismencyclopedia.co ... 4%ABtaruci


Vinītaruci

Vinītaruci (毘尼多流支, ?–594) means subdued pleasure (滅喜). He was born in the sixth century, in southern India. In 574, the sixth year of the Taijian (太建) years of the Chen Dynasty (557–89, the last of the four Southern Dynasties), he went to Chang-an (長安), China, in search of the Dharma. He met Sengcan (僧璨, dates unknown), the third patriarch of the Chan School, in Ye County (鄴縣), Hunan Province, who imparted to him the Mind Seal and commanded him to go to southern China to deliver the multitudes.
He then went down south to Guangdong Province and became the abbot of the Zhizhie Temple (制止寺) in the city of Guangzhou (廣州). There he translated, from Sanskrit into Chinese, the Mahāyāna Vaipulya Sūtra of Total Retention (T09n0275) and the Buddha Pronounces the Sūtra of the Elephant Head Ashram (T14n0466).
In 580, the twelfth year of the Taijian years, Vinītaruci went to northern Vietnam and became the abbot of the Fayun Temple (法雲寺). He started his Vinītaruci Chan School and propagated the Dharma in Vietnam for over ten years until his death in 594, during the Sui Dynasty (581–619). His teachings included that true suchness and Buddha nature are never born and never die and that all sentient beings have the same nature of true suchness. The Vinītaruci Chan School prospered in Vietnam for over six hundred years. His disciple Faxian (法賢, ?–626) was the first patriarch, who successively passed the lineage down to Yishan (依山, ?–1216). Then this Chan School declined into obscurity.

www.sutrasmantras.info

"His teachings included that true suchness and Buddha nature are never born and never die and that all sentient beings have the same nature of true suchness."
Thank you. Really appreciate it.

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by bokki » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:34 pm

bruce, i can copy the whole thread and at the end say thnx. what? ill copy paste the whole forum..and at the end say thank u...LOL
i do want to ask u, tho, bout ur avatar?
did u paint it, or who did it, i kinda like it..
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10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Bruce
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:23 pm

bokki wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:34 pm
bruce, i can copy the whole thread and at the end say thnx. what? ill copy paste the whole forum..and at the end say thank u...LOL
i do want to ask u, tho, bout ur avatar?
did u paint it, or who did it, i kinda like it..
Haha,very funny. just trying to be polite.

The picture is painted by my Vajrayanna teacher.

http://www.kankanwoo.com/?page_id=386

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bokki
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by bokki » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:48 pm

exceptional. outstanding, new take..
ill look more, thats full..full
ill b here later thnx bruce
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10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Meido » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:43 pm

Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:18 am
Out of curiosity, If you don't mind me asking what would you normally practice in Otokan Lineage?
"Otokan lineage" (after Xutang's heir Daio, his heir Daito, and his heir Kanzan) really just means Linji/Rinzai Zen in Japan, since it is the line that survived to the present day.

We can talk about this if you like, but maybe better to start a new thread.

~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

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