Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

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bokki
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by bokki » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:49 pm

We can talk about this if you like, but maybe better to start a new thread.
~ Meido
Please, Roshi. Could you start a new thread and please write all and everything about Rinzai lineage and practices you deem important or pertinent. Thank you in advance.
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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bokki
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:36 am

yea just a bunch of dead people, zombie zone, lol nothing
no 1
lol
botom
practice? u? lool
0
practice untill u r alive lol dead 1!
send my recognition by email..lol
u better practice lighting a stove
at least well b warm
lol
botom
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
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SunWuKong
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:54 am

Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:48 am


Exactly. I am trying to collect Zen Literature from pre-HUI NENG era to learn what Zen was like back in India. There were also many methods of ZEN was lost after the rise of HUI NENG's schools . Not much Text survived. One thing that would be really interesting is ZONG MI's writings and collection of the older pre HUI NENG ZEN schools; however, these writings was lost in wars. That is why I am trying to find literature outside Chinese language regarding ZEN in hoping something older would have survived.
He translated the first work, here's an English version
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra09.html

T14n0466 ---> this is in Chinese only, Google translation does nothing

Point to note - Vietnam did not exist. Maybe it would be more accurate to say he went to Tonkin. But even then maybe not.

I am trying to contact a senior translator of Sanskrit and Pali, and professor of South Asian Buddhist literature. I'm wondering the same thing so maybe he has some leads for us.

__()__
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

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anjali
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by anjali » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:57 am

Bokki, posts like this are probably best in the Creative Writing section of the board. ;)
bokki wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:36 am
yea just a bunch of dead people, zombie zone, lol nothing
no 1
lol
botom
practice? u? lool
0
practice untill u r alive lol dead 1!
send my recognition by email..lol
u better practice lighting a stove
at least well b warm
lol
botom

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bokki
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Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:36 am

posts like mine here are best in the bin
at least a few here r alive
thnx
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
Zen Space Forum

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Bruce
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:59 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:54 am
Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:48 am


Exactly. I am trying to collect Zen Literature from pre-HUI NENG era to learn what Zen was like back in India. There were also many methods of ZEN was lost after the rise of HUI NENG's schools . Not much Text survived. One thing that would be really interesting is ZONG MI's writings and collection of the older pre HUI NENG ZEN schools; however, these writings was lost in wars. That is why I am trying to find literature outside Chinese language regarding ZEN in hoping something older would have survived.
He translated the first work, here's an English version
http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra09.html

T14n0466 ---> this is in Chinese only, Google translation does nothing

Point to note - Vietnam did not exist. Maybe it would be more accurate to say he went to Tonkin. But even then maybe not.

I am trying to contact a senior translator of Sanskrit and Pali, and professor of South Asian Buddhist literature. I'm wondering the same thing so maybe he has some leads for us.

__()__
Thank you, that is Awesome!

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Bruce
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:04 am

Meido wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:43 pm
Bruce wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:18 am
Out of curiosity, If you don't mind me asking what would you normally practice in Otokan Lineage?
"Otokan lineage" (after Xutang's heir Daio, his heir Daito, and his heir Kanzan) really just means Linji/Rinzai Zen in Japan, since it is the line that survived to the present day.

We can talk about this if you like, but maybe better to start a new thread.

~ Meido
Agreed. I like to know more about actual practice of Otokan lineage. By the way, isn't Soto Zen also survived till this day? not sure, just asking. I read Lin Ji's writing before. very straight forward, very sharp, perhaps too sharp. He was the one who said, 'cut down the conception of Mara, cut down the conception of Buddha.'

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bokki
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by bokki » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:35 am

isn't Soto Zen also survived till this day?
LOL bruce, what planet have u fallen from?
LOL
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10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Bruce
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Bruce » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:54 am

bokki wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:35 am
isn't Soto Zen also survived till this day?
LOL bruce, what planet have u fallen from?
LOL
LOL Planet China. hahahaha. Honestly, I am interest in actual practice of ZEN. Read too much about it.

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Meido
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Meido » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:56 pm

Bruce wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:04 am
I like to know more about actual practice of Otokan lineage. By the way, isn't Soto Zen also survived till this day?
Yes, Soto Zen of course still exists. I meant that of the Linji lineages that made it to Japan, only the Otokan lineage coming from Xutang and through Daio, Daito, and Kanzan still survives. So all Rinzai lineages in Japan today are branches of the Otokan line.

There's another thread started about Rinzai practice, please take a look if you like.

~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

ItsRaining
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by ItsRaining » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:46 pm

Meido wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:56 pm
Bruce wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:04 am
I like to know more about actual practice of Otokan lineage. By the way, isn't Soto Zen also survived till this day?
Yes, Soto Zen of course still exists. I meant that of the Linji lineages that made it to Japan, only the Otokan lineage coming from Xutang and through Daio, Daito, and Kanzan still survives. So all Rinzai lineages in Japan today are branches of the Otokan line.

There's another thread started about Rinzai practice, please take a look if you like.

~ Meido

What about the Obaku school? Is it considered part of Rinzai or a separate sect? Wiki also says Hakuin's students purged some aspects of the school they disliked (From the short description; sutra study, nembustu, etc basically the Chinese Chan elements), so are Rinzai and Obaku basically the same now?

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Meido » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:32 am

ItsRaining wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:46 pm
What about the Obaku school? Is it considered part of Rinzai or a separate sect? Wiki also says Hakuin's students purged some aspects of the school they disliked (From the short description; sutra study, nembustu, etc basically the Chinese Chan elements), so are Rinzai and Obaku basically the same now?
The website of the Joint Council for Rinzai and Obaku Zen has good info, and confirms that the Manpuku-ji (Obaku h.q.) abbots are of the Otokan line:
Manpuku-ji and the other monasteries established in Yinyuan’s lineage remained strongly Chinese in character for many generations. The first thirteen abbots of Manpuku-ji were all Chinese; the fourteenth abbot, Ryuto Gento 龍統元棟 (1663–1746), was the first Japanese abbot, but he was followed by a number of Chinese chief priests. The thirty-third abbot, Ryochu Nyoryu 良忠如隆 (1793–1868) was a Dharma successor of the important Hakuin-line master Takuju Kosen; since that time the teachings of the school have become increasingly similar to those of Japanese Rinzai Zen (all masters are now of the Hakuin lineage), although many of the monastic customs of the Obaku school remain distinctly those of Ming-dynasty Chinese Zen. Practices like the nenbutsu and esoteric rituals have been retained, ceremonies such as sutra-chanting are performed in the Chinese manner, and mealtime ettiquette follows Chinese customs
- http://zen.rinnou.net/whats_zen/history.html#The Obaku School

Textual study is not purged anywhere that I know of. As for nembutsu: when it arrived in Japan, the Obaku-shu Ming-era Chan practice style was indeed criticized by some Japanese for Chan/Pure Land syncretism (Pure Land practice was not emphasized in the late Song-era Chan lineages already established there). I have no idea what Manpuku-ji preserves of the original practice style taught by Master Ingen.

Matylda or someone else might be able to give more info here.

~ Meido
Even though you have attained insight into the True Nature (kensho), there is yet the barrier of differentiation, and there is the One Path of Advanced Practice. If you have not yet even seen into the True Nature, what a lot there is yet to do! - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice
Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org
Madison, WI Rinzai Zen Community [機山龍源寺] - http://www.madisonrinzaizen.org
The Rinzai Zen Community - http://www.rinzaizen.org

ItsRaining
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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by ItsRaining » Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:36 pm

Meido wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:32 am
ItsRaining wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:46 pm
What about the Obaku school? Is it considered part of Rinzai or a separate sect? Wiki also says Hakuin's students purged some aspects of the school they disliked (From the short description; sutra study, nembustu, etc basically the Chinese Chan elements), so are Rinzai and Obaku basically the same now?
The website of the Joint Council for Rinzai and Obaku Zen has good info, and confirms that the Manpuku-ji (Obaku h.q.) abbots are of the Otokan line:
Manpuku-ji and the other monasteries established in Yinyuan’s lineage remained strongly Chinese in character for many generations. The first thirteen abbots of Manpuku-ji were all Chinese; the fourteenth abbot, Ryuto Gento 龍統元棟 (1663–1746), was the first Japanese abbot, but he was followed by a number of Chinese chief priests. The thirty-third abbot, Ryochu Nyoryu 良忠如隆 (1793–1868) was a Dharma successor of the important Hakuin-line master Takuju Kosen; since that time the teachings of the school have become increasingly similar to those of Japanese Rinzai Zen (all masters are now of the Hakuin lineage), although many of the monastic customs of the Obaku school remain distinctly those of Ming-dynasty Chinese Zen. Practices like the nenbutsu and esoteric rituals have been retained, ceremonies such as sutra-chanting are performed in the Chinese manner, and mealtime ettiquette follows Chinese customs
- http://zen.rinnou.net/whats_zen/history.html#The Obaku School

Textual study is not purged anywhere that I know of. As for nembutsu: when it arrived in Japan, the Obaku-shu Ming-era Chan practice style was indeed criticized by some Japanese for Chan/Pure Land syncretism (Pure Land practice was not emphasized in the late Song-era Chan lineages already established there). I have no idea what Manpuku-ji preserves of the original practice style taught by Master Ingen.

Matylda or someone else might be able to give more info here.

~ Meido
Thanks!

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Re: Anyone knows Vinītaruci or his zen practice?

Post by Matylda » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:49 am

Meido wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:32 am
ItsRaining wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:46 pm
What about the Obaku school? Is it considered part of Rinzai or a separate sect? Wiki also says Hakuin's students purged some aspects of the school they disliked (From the short description; sutra study, nembustu, etc basically the Chinese Chan elements), so are Rinzai and Obaku basically the same now?
The website of the Joint Council for Rinzai and Obaku Zen has good info, and confirms that the Manpuku-ji (Obaku h.q.) abbots are of the Otokan line:
Manpuku-ji and the other monasteries established in Yinyuan’s lineage remained strongly Chinese in character for many generations. The first thirteen abbots of Manpuku-ji were all Chinese; the fourteenth abbot, Ryuto Gento 龍統元棟 (1663–1746), was the first Japanese abbot, but he was followed by a number of Chinese chief priests. The thirty-third abbot, Ryochu Nyoryu 良忠如隆 (1793–1868) was a Dharma successor of the important Hakuin-line master Takuju Kosen; since that time the teachings of the school have become increasingly similar to those of Japanese Rinzai Zen (all masters are now of the Hakuin lineage), although many of the monastic customs of the Obaku school remain distinctly those of Ming-dynasty Chinese Zen. Practices like the nenbutsu and esoteric rituals have been retained, ceremonies such as sutra-chanting are performed in the Chinese manner, and mealtime ettiquette follows Chinese customs
- http://zen.rinnou.net/whats_zen/history.html#The Obaku School

Textual study is not purged anywhere that I know of. As for nembutsu: when it arrived in Japan, the Obaku-shu Ming-era Chan practice style was indeed criticized by some Japanese for Chan/Pure Land syncretism (Pure Land practice was not emphasized in the late Song-era Chan lineages already established there). I have no idea what Manpuku-ji preserves of the original practice style taught by Master Ingen.

Matylda or someone else might be able to give more info here.

~ Meido
Actually, when I talked in Mampukuji to one of the head monks about their koan practice he told me that they inherited Takuju lineage of Otokan. However he added, they still keep some koans and practice them of Chinese origin in Ming era. We did not talk about details, just it was what he said.

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