words enter the intellect: one is known.

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White Lotus
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words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by White Lotus » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:55 pm

the time comes when words no longer relate to sensory experience directly. so if i look at this computer screen and say in my mind: "this is a computer screen"; these words no longer touch it. and yet just looking at the computer screen it is real. words and experience have become separate.

it is interesting though that words/thought seems to have transcended real reality into the realms of intellect. in zen a person is often taught that the conceptual mind is useless. i would say though that words transcend apparent/sensory reality and come to engage with the intellect. one emerges from non conceptual emptiness into conceptual realisation of 'one'. realisation of 'one' is a realisation by intellect. to realise one as this or that is possible, just as it is possible to understand dependent origination through observation. however the true understanding of one is an intellectual excercise that engages thought/word and transcends this or that.

one is all, all is one and yet one is distinctly separate, unique and individual at the same time. ideally one is not limited by time, position or place, change or difference or sameness being one dimensional it is not 'within' nor containing anything. it is just one. if i say it 'is' one i attach it to 'being'. ideally it 'isnt/is' not attached to being or non being: existing/non-existing.

i would like to propose that one is the simplest way of understanding zen. And that intellect and concept/thought are needed to and worthy to transcend emptiness to an understanding of one. (at the very core of emptiness).

i don't expect many people to understand one. i certainly really struggle in an understanding of it. yet as the simplest thing it is just one.
emptiness/being is one, absolute zero is one and one is one (without being). emptiness is one without form or name, emptiness of emptiness is one absolute zero and simple uncompounded ideal one is beyond all being/emptiness.

i hope this is helpful. if it isn't my apologies for finding it exceedingly difficult to articulate what i know about one. so simple, so complex. i doubt i will ever have a clear and simple understanding of one, beyond simply lifting my index finger and saying: 'understand?' here i think that zen would say: keep it simple. however it defies simplicity. :rolleye:

kind regards, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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daibunny
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by daibunny » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:43 pm

Its rare that one sees so much said to so little effect.
The best way to understand zen is to practice, which i suggest you do.
Nothing remains
Of the house that I was born in--
Fireflies.

- Santoka, 1882-1940
Mountain Tasting: Zen Haiku by Santoka Taneda, 1980, p.48
Translated by John Stevens

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:00 pm

daibunny wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:43 pm
... rare ...
Unlike, say, your typical a-hole.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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dzogchungpa
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:00 pm
daibunny wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:43 pm
... rare ...
Unlike, say, your typical a-hole.
Oh snap.
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

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SunWuKong
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:53 pm

Some words are actually very useful in describing what some words mean. But when we say "yellow," if one does not know by direct experience what "yellow" is, it indicates nothing to the hearer. Many readers may understand it, so its not a defect in the word per se. Its just that one hearer had no context. So it is with real Zen. If you have no context it's merely a word describing something you don't know. Either you don't know, or you have never been shown the connection between the word and possibly corresponding matches with the field of your experience. Neither can it be said that if one were to accurately convey what "Zen" is, is it impossible to match "word" to "thing." And so on and so forth :woohoo:
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

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daibunny
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by daibunny » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:34 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:00 pm
daibunny wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:43 pm
... rare ...
Unlike, say, your typical a-hole.
Oh snap.
I know, right? My self esteem crashed so hard im thinking about eating cheetos and watching reality tv.
Nothing remains
Of the house that I was born in--
Fireflies.

- Santoka, 1882-1940
Mountain Tasting: Zen Haiku by Santoka Taneda, 1980, p.48
Translated by John Stevens

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:40 pm

I apologize.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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fuki
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by fuki » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:42 pm

Emptiness means relations.

any thought exersice like in the OP are fantasies the conditioned mind adds to perception, when the mind is still the knowledge of "one" is also no more, in this place of "not-knowing" is where our practise lies and wisdom manifests in our daily lives interacting with living beings, how we respond to any situation with wisdom and compassion to all beings, emptiness is full of service, seperate and unity are valid on the level of mind only, not in reality.

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daibunny
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by daibunny » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:45 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:40 pm
I apologize.
NP :) Yours is i gather a somewhat objective opinion so you may be right :twothumbsup:
Nothing remains
Of the house that I was born in--
Fireflies.

- Santoka, 1882-1940
Mountain Tasting: Zen Haiku by Santoka Taneda, 1980, p.48
Translated by John Stevens

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Lindama
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by Lindama » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:17 am

Dear Heart you stopped me cold... yes! in a nutshell, yes!! :group:
fuki wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:42 pm
Emptiness means relations.
Not last night,
not this morning,
melon flowers bloomed.
~ Bassho

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bokki
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by bokki » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:59 am

fuki:
Emptiness means relations.
i do remember some talk about dependent, interdependent origination, cause an effect..
but, never mind.
this:
..seperate and unity are valid on the level of mind only, not in reality.
fuki, what reality outside of mind, outside of diff and unity? have u found some reality outside of mind, outside of difference and unity? if u have, plz tell. ur friend. b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson
Zen Space Forum

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LastLegend
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by LastLegend » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:47 pm

Words point to your clear mind like words in Mahaprajnaparamita Sutras.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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fuki
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by fuki » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:14 pm

bokki wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:59 am
fuki, what reality outside of mind, outside of diff and unity? have u found some reality outside of mind, outside of difference and unity? if u have, plz tell. ur friend. b
Bokki it's just a state unaffected by the mind, the concept of outside of doesnt apply for there really is no such thing as mind, it's just natural, normal. When not in the natural state one is troubled by desire, fear, hopes and memories all pieced together by discarded bits of imagination which makes you think your a person or individual or a Buddhist ;) imagining to have a past and future, birth an death and so on. Observing dependent arising in your daily life is key.

White Lotus
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Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by White Lotus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:34 pm

Some would say just practice or just live. All we have is 'this'. But i ask what is 'this' that practices and relates? What is the root of the unthinking clear mind and perception? What is the root of emptiness and interbeing? Simple. Its just 1. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by White Lotus » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:40 pm

Fuki, you say: "one is troubled by desire". I would say that this 'one' is where people should look. :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: words enter the intellect: one is known.

Post by White Lotus » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:22 pm

to be attached to 1 is to miss the point. buddhism is learning something new and then letting go of it. beyond 1 is mysterious emptiness and this is beyond all grasping, beyond emptiness is tathata. the spiral turns in my case again and again visiting old concepts or ways of seeing. emptiness, tathata, emptiness, tathata, emptiness, tathata. but the only thing that is uncontrived is tathata. what we see, hear, smell, taste, touch and know in our daily lives. it is a constant. where profound emptiness is known by the intellect; tathata is known directly and clearly. it doesn't leave one. but we should not grasp tathata, it is something we see and know naturally without identifying with it.

it is easy when we first grasp tathata to identify with it: "i am tathata" we might say. but this would be identification of an ego conceit. if we say: "I am enlightened" this is also an ego conceit. in truth we should realise that no one is enlightened. there is no self to be enlightened. so when we see we shouldn't self identify with what we see. we should just see and then let it go.

i'm afraid i wont be on the web for a while after new year because my mobile phone is down. i am using my Dad's computer over the new year. very convenient for me.

a learner on the path, Tom. :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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