All is One

Motova
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Re: All is One

Post by Motova » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:05 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:02 pm
This is a Zen site and if you wish to ban the teaching of Patriarch Seng Tsan then so be it.
Why didn't you respond to my refutation?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

White Lotus
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:23 pm

Because i agreed with it! :smile:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Motova
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: All is One

Post by Motova » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:28 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:23 pm
Because i agreed with it! :smile:
Image
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Simon E.
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: All is One

Post by Simon E. » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:36 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:43 pm
I am trying not to 'diversify' (prapanca). I am trying to unify all positions as 1. All = 1. Just 1. :namaste:
That is not what most people mean by prapanca. Prapanca is the tendency of the mind towards proliferation of concepts.
Concepts lead to more concepts, not to unity.
Prapanca at root arises as a reaction to affliction. It is an exercise in self-distraction.
A way of denying existential pain/dukkha.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

White Lotus
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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:18 pm

If you want to know the mind of the Third Patriarch of Zen: Master Seng Tsan (Seng Chan) you can read his Hsing Hsing Ming: "Dwell not in the voidness conception. Settle in stable balance in oneness."[v. 4-5.p123] and: "One is all, All is one. If Thusness is ably realized, why worry you as unperfected?"[v. 34-35.p127] and:"Profound in the reality of 'one' Thusness, You are unmoved and unconditioned. All dharmas visioned in equality, You return to true naturalness."[v.24-25.p126] (Master Seng Chan's Faith Mind Maxim)[BDK English Tripitaka, "Three Chan Classics".] as far as Zen is concerned this is part of the Tripitaka. You are free to choose whether or not to accept the way i explain things. Perhaps I am ignorant. Tom. :reading:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Simon E.
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: All is One

Post by Simon E. » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:21 pm

Have you returned to ' true naturalness' Tom? Is that where you live?
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

White Lotus
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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:09 pm

Don't you Dan? :meditate:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: All is One

Post by Motova » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:28 pm

Image
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Ayu
Former staff member
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Location: Europe

Re: All is One

Post by Ayu » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:26 am

What is the problem?

Nothing. :tongue:
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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KeithA
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: All is One

Post by KeithA » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:23 am

Motova wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:54 pm
White Lotus wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:43 pm
I am trying not to 'diversify' (prapanca). I am trying to unify all positions as 1. All = 1. Just 1. :namaste:
:ban:
If you want understand why Zen folks are sceptical about hanging out, here is your answer.

I will be honest, I don't get what WL is trying to get across here, but banning this person never crossed my mind.

_/|\_

White Lotus
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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:21 pm

Thank you Ayu and Keith. Motova where did you dig up that picture of the White Lotus?! P.s. He couldn't break the leg of a grass hopper. (it's a secret.. Shhhooosh!). :applause:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Simon E.
Posts: 5566
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: All is One

Post by Simon E. » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:31 pm

KeithA wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:23 am
Motova wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:54 pm
White Lotus wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:43 pm
I am trying not to 'diversify' (prapanca). I am trying to unify all positions as 1. All = 1. Just 1. :namaste:
:ban:
If you want understand why Zen folks are sceptical about hanging out, here is your answer.

I will be honest, I don't get what WL is trying to get across here, but banning this person never crossed my mind.

_/|\_
I have no idea what he is on about. But banning him didn't cross my mind either. Prapanca is a real problem. But it should not lead to banning, just calling what it is.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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KeithA
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: All is One

Post by KeithA » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:31 pm
KeithA wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:23 am
Motova wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:54 pm


:ban:
If you want understand why Zen folks are sceptical about hanging out, here is your answer.

I will be honest, I don't get what WL is trying to get across here, but banning this person never crossed my mind.

_/|\_
I have no idea what he is on about. But banning him didn't cross my mind either. Prapanca is a real problem. But it should not lead to banning, just calling what it is.
I honestly don't know why the site would even have a "ban?" emoji. Ah well..round and round.

Keith

White Lotus
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Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:43 pm

I think i've had one other ban in nearly 8 years so hopefully i will not be banned. But if i am my work must be done. Incidentally Keith i have found a great deal of open mindedness and wise compassion at DW. I particularly appreciate David Schneider who hosts our site with such an open hand. Rgds, Tom. :anjali:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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KeithA
Posts: 152
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: All is One

Post by KeithA » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:44 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:43 pm
I think i've had one other ban in nearly 8 years so hopefully i will not be banned. But if i am my work must be done. Incidentally Keith i have found a great deal of open mindedness and wise compassion at DW. I particularly appreciate David Schneider who hosts our site with such an open hand. Rgds, Tom. :anjali:
:twothumbsup:

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: All is One

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

White Lotus
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:03 pm

Simon, i find your concept of Prapanca interesting. I see that self conceit could feed off reifying any concept, thus fuelling dukkha. Even if it is known that there is no self.
Last edited by White Lotus on Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:10 pm

Statements such as "all is one" or "emptiness is form" would be prapanca? Proliferation? Or would prapanca be any form of elaboration? :?:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
Posts: 1166
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 pm

Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:16 pm

Simon, how do we avoid distracting ourselves with concepts? :?:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: All is One

Post by Motova » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:51 pm

Direct experience.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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