All is One

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Vasana
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Re: All is One

Post by Vasana » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:59 pm

White Lotus, I'm going to be frank with you. I honestly think that all of this 'one' spiel that you're well versed in has caused you to become slightly out of touch with the 4 noble truths and your own experiences of suffering. I'll explain why I suspect that and you can take it or leave it.
  • Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering. - Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta
What is it really like for you personally when you encounter a sight, smell, taste, sound, texture or idea that falls on the 'unpleasant' side of the spectrum? Or in the Buddha's words, 'union with what is displeasing'. Have you ever woke up with a hangover, or had a day where things just kept going wrong one after the other? Maybe you stepped in shit or got a parking ticket or even just got a flu or cold that didn't seem to pass for a long time. Maybe someone was rude or confrontational towards you for no apparent reason. Maybe you lost a really important item. Maybe you had an argument with a friend or family member etc etc... I'm sure you can think of many other examples in daily life that we might habitually feel some resistance towards...You might say you have transcended the senses, but unless you lock yourself in a dark room and never come out, you will inevitably find your senses meeting with all kinds of sense-objects and experiences. Some of them will be displeasing or pleasing by common, worldly definition - even the pleasing experiences can turn to displeasure when we're parted from them or crave them to the point of subtle or gross agitation or un-ease. Again, I'm sure you can think of many daily examples.

If you are still human and do still experience these moments, then how has the 'oneness' dialouge effected the way you experience them, if at all ? Not in retrospect, not in any hypotehtical future situation, but in the very moment they occur? In any given moment of contacting what is displeasing or separating from what is pleasing, is your concept/understanding of 'one' always in the forefront of your mind and does it gradually diminish or instantly liberate the tendency to experience the 6 consciousnes' as suffering? Or does it only show up only in retrospect?
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: All is One

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:10 pm

One who only goes #1 is always full of #2.

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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:59 pm

:ban:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:01 pm

Someone is tampering with my posts. I didn't send a ban.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Dan74
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Re: All is One

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:03 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:59 pm
White Lotus, I'm going to be frank with you. I honestly think that all of this 'one' spiel that you're well versed in has caused you to become slightly out of touch with the 4 noble truths and your own experiences of suffering. I'll explain why I suspect that and you can take it or leave it.
  • Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering. - Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta
What is it really like for you personally when you encounter a sight, smell, taste, sound, texture or idea that falls on the 'unpleasant' side of the spectrum? Or in the Buddha's words, 'union with what is displeasing'. Have you ever woke up with a hangover, or had a day where things just kept going wrong one after the other? Maybe you stepped in shit or got a parking ticket or even just got a flu or cold that didn't seem to pass for a long time. Maybe someone was rude or confrontational towards you for no apparent reason. Maybe you lost a really important item. Maybe you had an argument with a friend or family member etc etc... I'm sure you can think of many other examples in daily life that we might habitually feel some resistance towards...You might say you have transcended the senses, but unless you lock yourself in a dark room and never come out, you will inevitably find your senses meeting with all kinds of sense-objects and experiences. Some of them will be displeasing or pleasing by common, worldly definition - even the pleasing experiences can turn to displeasure when we're parted from them or crave them to the point of subtle or gross agitation or un-ease. Again, I'm sure you can think of many daily examples.

If you are still human and do still experience these moments, then how has the 'oneness' dialouge effected the way you experience them, if at all ? Not in retrospect, not in any hypotehtical future situation, but in the very moment they occur? In any given moment of contacting what is displeasing or separating from what is pleasing, is your concept/understanding of 'one' always in the forefront of your mind and does it gradually diminish or instantly liberate the tendency to experience the 6 consciousnes' as suffering? Or does it only show up only in retrospect?
:good:

Good question not just for WL but all of us to keep at the forefront of practice. As well as to ask how we respond. With self-seeking to attain desirable outcomes and avoid the undesirable ones, by trying to shield ourselves from anu disturbance and remain in our nice quiet bubble or by giving 100% of whatever's necessarily, seeing clearly and without any artifice exercising wise compassionate action, according to the causes and conditions.

On the metalevel, I think this thread shows well that there is a variety of ways to deal with such questions. Every moment is an opportunity - to run in the same familiar circles or to connect with the reality of this moment a little more no matter what the perceived merits of a particular manifestation are. We can always give a bit more.
Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

White Lotus
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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:05 pm

1 will not solve the problem of suffering.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: All is One

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:14 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:05 pm
1 will not solve the problem of suffering.
What's the point then?

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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:25 pm

The buddha is wise. I am a fool, but the buddha is patient! Even if he is harsh sometimes.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:32 pm

Pure mathematics. It can be fun, but its probably useless.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Dan74
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Re: All is One

Post by Dan74 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:06 pm

Really? Vasana's questions deserve more than that. If Dharma is not grounded in the nitty gritty of daily life, it is just fantasy.

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Re: All is One

Post by odysseus » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:22 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:25 pm
Even if he is harsh sometimes.
He is not harsh.

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Vasana
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Re: All is One

Post by Vasana » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:57 am

White Lotus wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:32 pm
Pure mathematics. It can be fun, but its probably useless.
So, the question still remains White-Lotus; Has your dialogue on the 'one' helped to reduce or liberate the afflictions then? Or is it just mathematics? All dharma teachings are for the purpose of addressing the afflictions, if you are practicing an observance that doesn't address affliction then it's almost certain that it isn't Buddha Dharma.
Dan74 wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:06 pm
.If Dharma is not grounded in the nitty gritty of daily life, it is just fantasy.
Yup. It's easy to deviate from that point and get lost in abstraction
  • 'Both formerly and now, it is only suffering that I describe, and the cessation of suffering.”

    - Buddha - Sutta Nipata

    "I tell you, venerable sirs, that the Blessed One righteously declares that 'This is skillful.' He declares that 'This is unskillful.' Declaring that 'This is skillful' and 'This is unskillful,' he is one who has declared [a teaching]. He is not a nihilist, one who doesn't declare anything."

    [...]"If, when an observance is observed, unskillful qualities grow and skillful qualities wane, then I tell you that that sort of observance is not to be observed. But if, when an observance is observed, unskillful qualities wane and skillful qualities grow, then I tell you that that sort of observance is to be observed.

    "If, when an exertion is pursued... a forfeiture is forfeited...

    "If, when a release is used for release, unskillful qualities grow and skillful qualities wane, then I tell you that that sort of release is not to be used for release. But if, when a release is used for release, unskillful qualities wane and skillful qualities grow, then I tell you that that sort of release is to be used for release."

    - Vajjiya Sutta
And then,
  • “How many obscurations and how many afflictions have been subdued or cleared away? This is the true test of meditation, not what wonderful or special experiences we might have.”

    - 17th Karmapa

    'The sign of having meditated is the lessening of our afflictions. If our afflictions such
    as the three poisons gradually weaken or decrease over time, that is the indication
    that our mind have familiarised itself with the teachings.'


    - Khen Rinpoche Geshe Chonyi

    Whether we sit with our arms folded this way and our legs crossed that way is of little consequence. But it is extremely important to check and see if whatever meditation we do is an actual remedy for our suffering.”

    - Lama Yeshe

    Calm and self-control are signs of listening to the Dharma;
    Few afflictions, signs of meditation;
    Harmony with everyone is the sign of a practitioner;
    Your mind at ease, the sign of accomplishment.'


    - Dudjom Rinpoche.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:35 pm

The function/use of immanent1 is the all. There has been a reduction in my defilements. immanent 1/All is suffering. Is transcendent uncompounded 1 the buddha? Perhaps. To 'identify' with any kind of attainment or achievement; even with 1 is the myth of ego. To say that "i am" this or that is ego. The illusion of a self. I believe one needs to be mindful of the 6 senses (especially mind and feelings) if one wishes to overcome suffering because the 6 senses are the gates of suffering. Every compounded 1 suffers. I recognise that conceptualising is a distraction that takes us away from mindfulness and so perpetuates suffering. It is therefore legitimate to say that conceptualising about 1 is prapanca. Any attachment is an attachment to the notion of self. 'I am' happy, 'i am' sad is also prapanca. These emotions begin to lose their grip in me. The secret is to know about 1, but not to identify with it. Certainly not to become attached to it. Thank you so much for your detailed posts Vasana. They are worthy of study. Tom. :namaste:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:45 pm

Vasana, meditation is very important to me. Thank you for mentioning it. Its been tough hosting this thread. Apologies if my replys are insufficient.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

White Lotus
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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:03 pm

Since compounded1 is 'all' i think the buddha would say that compounded 1 is suffering. ideal 1 is uncompounded but he who identifies with it will still suffer and so best i think: work on meditation and defilements and be mindful of 'self' affirmations which may hinder.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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Re: All is One

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:24 pm

TRUSTING IN MIND (THIRD PATRIARCH OF ZEN, SENG-TS’AN)

A New Translation of the Hsin Hsin Ming, the classic poem by the Third Patriarch of Zen, Seng-Ts’an

The Great Way is not difficult,
Just don’t pick and choose.
If you cut off all likes or dislikes
Everything is clear like space.

Make the slightest distinction
And heaven and earth are set apart.
If you wish to see the truth,
Don’t think for or against.

Likes and dislikes
Are the mind’s disease.
Without understanding the deep meaning
You cannot still your thoughts.

It is clear like space,
Nothing missing, nothing extra.
If you want something
You cannot see things as they are.

Outside, don’t get tangled in things.
Inside, don’t get lost in emptiness.
Be still and become One
And all opposites disappear.

If you stop moving to become still,
This stillness always moves.
If you hold on to opposites,
How can you know One?

If you don’t understand One,
This and that cannot function.
Denied, the world asserts itself.
Pursued, emptiness is lost.

The more you think and talk,
The more you lose the Way.
Cut off all thinking
And pass freely anywhere.

Return to the root and understand.
Chase appearances and lose the source.
One moment of enlightenment
Illuminates the emptiness before you.

Emptiness changing into things
Is only our deluded view.
Do not seek the truth.
Only put down your opinions.

Do not live in the world of opposites.
Be careful! Never go that way.
If you make right and wrong,
Your mind is lost in confusion.

Two comes from One,
But do not cling even to this One.
When your mind is undisturbed
The ten thousand things are without fault.

No fault, no ten thousand things,
No disturbance, no mind.
No world, no one to see it.
No one to see it, no world.

This becomes this because of that.
That becomes that because of this.
If you wish to understand both,
See them as originally one emptiness.

In emptiness the two are the same,
And each holds the ten thousand things.
If you no longer see them as different,
How can you prefer one to another?

The Way is calm and wide,
Not easy, not difficult.
But small minds get lost.
Hurrying, they fall behind.

Clinging, they go too far,
Sure to take a wrong turn,
Just let it be! In the end,
Nothing goes, nothing stays.

Follow nature and become one with the Way,
Free and easy and undisturbed.
Tied by your thoughts, you lose the truth,
Become heavy, dull, and unwell.

Not well, the mind is troubled.
Then why hold or reject anything?
If you want to get the One Vehicle
Do not despise the world of the senses.

When you do not despise the six senses,
That is already enlightenment.
The wise do not act.
The ignorant bind themselves.

In true Dharma there is no this or that,
So why blindly chase your desires?
Using mind to stir up the mind
Is the original mistake.

Peaceful and troubled are only thinking.
Enlightenment has no likes or dislikes.
All opposites arise
From faulty views.

Illusions, flowers in the air —
Why try to grasp them?
Win, lose, right, wrong —
Put it all down!

If the eye never sleeps,
Dreams disappear by themselves.
If the mind makes no distinctions,
The ten thousand things are one essence.

Understand this dark essence
And be free from entanglements.
See the ten thousand things as equal
And you return to your original nature

Enlightened beings everywhere
All enter this source.
This source is beyond time and space.
One moment is ten thousand years.

Even if you cannot see it,
The whole universe is before your eyes.

Infinitely small is infinitely large:
No boundaries, no differences.
Infinitely large is infinitely small:
Measurements do not matter here.

What is is the same as what is not.
What is not is the same as what is.
Where it is not like this,
Don’t bother staying.

One is all,
All is one.
When you see things like this,
You do not worry about being incomplete.

Trust and Mind are not two.
Not-two is trusting the Mind.

Words and speech don’t cut it,
Can’t now, never could, won’t ever.

Seng-Ts’an was the third Chinese patriarch of Zen, having received transmission from Bodhidharma’s successor, Hui K’o. The poem attributed to him, the “Hsin Hsin Ming” (lit. “Trust Mind Inscription), is one of the earliest and most influential Zen writings, blending together Buddhist and Taoist teachings.

The translator, Zen Master Hae Kwang, teaches Zen at the Kansas Zen Center and Classics at the University of Kansas.

http://providencezen.org/trusting-in-mi ... -seng-tsan
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

White Lotus
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Re: All is One

Post by White Lotus » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:32 pm

Puer, the old master was very enlightening. Thank you for you'r tremendous effort. It must be said that to identify with 1 is to fail in the quest for enlightenment. If i say 'i am' 1, i have still got an ego attachment. Its so hard to let it all go. 'I' want to be. 'i' am. 'i' was. 'i' will be. All self identification leads to suffering. I have seen a little of what master Seng Tsan has seen. The 1 is beautiful, but don't get too attached or you'r hair will fall out! (some would say thats a good thing!). Perhaps 1 is reality and we need to let go of it in order to get to Nirvana. I don't know. The six senses bring pain. When we enter the intellect, the highest sense, we see the 1, but this too is pain even if it seems comforting. There's much more i could say about 1, but it would only be a tranquiliser, a distraction. I don't know what Muni thinks, but value his learning. See the 1, but don't attach to it. attachment to any concept only affirms a false sense of self attainment and a self possessing that concept. Keep on reading Hsing Hsing Ming. :thanks:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.

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srivijaya
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Re: All is One

Post by srivijaya » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:31 am

The title of this topic brought this timeless wisdom to mind:
"When all are one and one is all (Yeah)
To be a rock and not to roll"

Stairway To Heaven - Led Zeppelin
And who could argue with that? :sage:

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Dan74
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Re: All is One

Post by Dan74 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:21 pm

White Lotus wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:32 pm
The six senses bring pain.
-A monk asked "What is one to do when the six thieves are laying siege to the house?"
-The master replied: "They are members of one's own family."

If you run from the six senses, you run further into delusion.

_/|\_

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Re: All is One

Post by CedarTree » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:26 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:21 pm
White Lotus wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:32 pm
The six senses bring pain.
-A monk asked "What is one to do when the six thieves are laying siege to the house?"
-The master replied: "They are members of one's own family."

If you run from the six senses, you run further into delusion.

_/|\_
Dan just Zen'd you.

This is why he is a Zen Moderator ;)

Practice, Practice, Practice

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