Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:53 pm
There is no Guru Yoga in Zen. In Dzogchen one's Lama is Buddha.
Also I assume Zen doesn't have Dream Yoga or Tummo or most of the methods Dzogchen has access to.
Zen has its own methods, kuden (oral instruction), and hidden practices, with which you appear unfamiliar.
Some of these methods bear some resemblance to things found elsewhere, but that is another topic (not one I'm terribly interested in discussing). But basically, Zen is accomplished through the body.
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Where are the Zen public pointing out intructions?
Rather obviously everywhere, though we use the term "direct pointing," or more colloquially
sottaku ("pecking") for this crucial activity of the teacher, which is in fact the teacher's primary initial task vis a vis the student.
As for the specific transmitted methods of arranging conditions such that the student has the recognition we call kensho (upon which all subsequent practice is based) or methods allowing the student to repeatedly revisit that experiential realization along the path of seamless embodiment, these are mostly orally transmitted and so not widely known or found in popular works. If you wish, you can see my next book in which I scandalously reveal a pile of them.
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
In Dzogchen one begins directly with pointing out instructions, does Zen do that?
Zen begins with direct pointing. Simultaneously, with practices to dissolve obstructions to kensho for those who don't "get" it, and to cultivate the samadhi that will be crucial for all students at some point along the path of clarifying kensho and dissolving karmic traces.
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Is Zen a separate yana like Dzogchen?
Zen of course doesn't use that yana scheme. It has its own, considering itself an expression of Ekayana, meaning in this case those paths founded upon, and taking as their gate, the recognition of one's nature, and ultimately transcending distinctions of vehicles, paths, sects, sutra vs. tantra, and "Buddhism." From the Zen standpoint, I would personally classify Dzogchen also an expression of Ekayana in this way (though I would not go into a Dzogchen forum expecting anyone there to accept or use Zen's vehicle hierarchy).
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
In Zen do you have to do preliminary sutra stuff?
No. Is it necessary to do so in Dzogchen?
Of course, sutras are valued in Zen...and there is a Zen take on how to use them, i.e. at the stage of advanced practice to confirm and seal one's realization.
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
You have to read between the lines.
Yep.
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Zen simply does not have the OOMPH that Dzogchen does.
To say so, I expect you have received the secret transmitted teachings of some Zen lineage?
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
Zen is sutra and maybe has some lower tantra.
Zen does not recognize that distinction at all. You have either entered the gate of recognizing your nature, or you have not.
If you have done so, you realize what sutras/tantras and "vehicles" are for. If you have not done so, it doesn't matter what tradition's teachers you hang out with: as an individual you have not even attained to the Shravaka vehicle, let alone the Great Vehicle or the Ekayana that transcends vehicles.
Motova wrote: ↑Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
Dzogchen has everything Zen has and much more. Of course it has more oomph. There are much more methods for recognizing the nature of mind and for integration.
How many Zen methods have you learned?
Really, the kind of ill-informed parrot-speak triumphalism in these last few posts is a drag, especially when it is from someone obviously unfamiliar with Zen, and posting in the Zen forum to boot.
If you're interested to learn what Zen really transmits and involves, I suggest you find a good teacher and go do it for 20 years. If not, it is better not to broadcast one's knowledge deficits...and better still to just work on your own path.