Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Motova » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:53 pm

There is no Guru Yoga in Zen. In Dzogchen one's Lama is Buddha.

Also I assume Zen doesn't have Dream Yoga or Tummo or most of the methods Dzogchen has access to.
DesertDweller wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:00 am
But I should have clarified that I personally already believe that, at least in terms of the Mind that is "pointed out," Zen and Dzogchen are identical.
Dzogchen teachings aren't for recognizing the mind....
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Motova » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm

Where are the Zen public pointing out intructions? It takes big testicles or ovaries for a Lama to give public Dzogchen intructions to crowds... it's a real display of realization. Do Zen masters publicly demonstrate realization like that to crowds? Chogyal Namkai Norbu Rinpoche does this through webcasts.... Do you understand the implications?

In Dzogchen one begins directly with pointing out instructions, does Zen do that? Is Zen a separate yana like Dzogchen? In Zen do you have to do preliminary sutra stuff?

You have to read between the lines.

Zen simply does not have the OOMPH that Dzogchen does.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

smcj
Posts: 5817
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by smcj » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:20 pm

Zen simply does not have the OOMPH that Dzogchen does.
This is the Zen forum.

It’s okay to post that in the Dzogchen forum.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Motova » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm

smcj wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:20 pm
Zen simply does not have the OOMPH that Dzogchen does.
This is the Zen forum.

It’s okay to post that in the Dzogchen forum.
DesertDweller wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:07 am
Vajrayana practitioners are of course emphatically welcome to contribute as much as they want to this discussion, but please keep in mind that I posted here for a reason.
Zen is sutra and maybe has some lower tantra. Dzogchen is at the top of the 9 yanas. Dzogchen has everything Zen has and much more. Of course it has more oomph. There are much more methods for recognizing the nature of mind and for integration.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Aryjna » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:56 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
smcj wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:20 pm
Zen simply does not have the OOMPH that Dzogchen does.
This is the Zen forum.

It’s okay to post that in the Dzogchen forum.
DesertDweller wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:07 am
Vajrayana practitioners are of course emphatically welcome to contribute as much as they want to this discussion, but please keep in mind that I posted here for a reason.
Zen is sutra and maybe has some lower tantra. Dzogchen is at the top of the 9 yanas. Dzogchen has everything Zen has and much more. Of course it has more oomph. There are much more methods for recognizing the nature of mind and for integration.
The nine vehicles classification is not accepted in Zen, or by anyone other than Nyingmapas probably. I have to agree with smcj, I doubt that the mods will appreciate your previous posts :D

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Motova » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:02 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:56 pm
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
smcj wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:20 pm

This is the Zen forum.

It’s okay to post that in the Dzogchen forum.
DesertDweller wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:07 am
Vajrayana practitioners are of course emphatically welcome to contribute as much as they want to this discussion, but please keep in mind that I posted here for a reason.
Zen is sutra and maybe has some lower tantra. Dzogchen is at the top of the 9 yanas. Dzogchen has everything Zen has and much more. Of course it has more oomph. There are much more methods for recognizing the nature of mind and for integration.
The nine vehicles classification is not accepted in Zen, or by anyone other than Nyingmapas probably. I have to agree with smcj, I doubt that the mods will appreciate your previous posts :D
I am giving a mathematical and scientific perspective.... :smile:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

passel
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by passel » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:12 pm

DesertDweller wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:23 am
Hey JMGinPDX--
That's really great!
I had no idea the Theravadins were even really aware of Dzogchen, much less wrote about it and "reflected" on it! I'm definitely interested in reading this book (especially since it's free in PDF). I hope to share thoughts when I do (and anyone else is welcome as well--my knowledge of Theravada is very basic so the thoughts of better scholars than me will probably be more valuable).
:thanks:
Dzogchen was all the rage in American vipassana circles in the mid to late 90’s, into the 2000s. That seems to have faded; but Kornfield, Salzberg, Goldstein, Goldman, Kabat-Zinn are all dzogchenpas to some extent or another.

I’ve studied Rinzai zen under 2 Japanese teachers over the last 20 years; neither are still alive; since about 2003 I’ve been working with dzogchen and mahamudra instructions in tandem with that; since my former teacher died, my main practice has been in accord (I hope) with dzogchen instructions I’ve gotten from my current teacher. This is not because I have some master synthesis, it’s just been my life. I’ve found it best to keep the two conceptually distinct, to let zen speak for zen and dzogchen speak for dzogchen. I’m instructed by the Rime approach on this...
If you’re a person who can’t handle dissonance. I wouldn’t recommend it, but it’s been fine for me. There’s no real drive to make comparisons, “the path is whatever passes”. Not the same, but you’ve got the one life and how you use it is up to you. What did Sengai say? “If you want to know the bamboo, go to the bamboo.”
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

passel
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by passel » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:16 pm

Dzogchen/ vajrayana perspective is often that zen is “sutra”, but that is not a claim zen makes for itself. It’s an example of slotting the ‘other’ into a known category in order to understand it, but coming just to confirm what you already know about a stereotype, not the actual target.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

User avatar
Meido
Posts: 457
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:50 am
Contact:

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Meido » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:16 pm

Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:53 pm
There is no Guru Yoga in Zen. In Dzogchen one's Lama is Buddha.

Also I assume Zen doesn't have Dream Yoga or Tummo or most of the methods Dzogchen has access to.
Zen has its own methods, kuden (oral instruction), and hidden practices, with which you appear unfamiliar.

Some of these methods bear some resemblance to things found elsewhere, but that is another topic (not one I'm terribly interested in discussing). But basically, Zen is accomplished through the body.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Where are the Zen public pointing out intructions?
Rather obviously everywhere, though we use the term "direct pointing," or more colloquially sottaku ("pecking") for this crucial activity of the teacher, which is in fact the teacher's primary initial task vis a vis the student.

As for the specific transmitted methods of arranging conditions such that the student has the recognition we call kensho (upon which all subsequent practice is based) or methods allowing the student to repeatedly revisit that experiential realization along the path of seamless embodiment, these are mostly orally transmitted and so not widely known or found in popular works. If you wish, you can see my next book in which I scandalously reveal a pile of them.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
In Dzogchen one begins directly with pointing out instructions, does Zen do that?
Zen begins with direct pointing. Simultaneously, with practices to dissolve obstructions to kensho for those who don't "get" it, and to cultivate the samadhi that will be crucial for all students at some point along the path of clarifying kensho and dissolving karmic traces.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Is Zen a separate yana like Dzogchen?
Zen of course doesn't use that yana scheme. It has its own, considering itself an expression of Ekayana, meaning in this case those paths founded upon, and taking as their gate, the recognition of one's nature, and ultimately transcending distinctions of vehicles, paths, sects, sutra vs. tantra, and "Buddhism." From the Zen standpoint, I would personally classify Dzogchen also an expression of Ekayana in this way (though I would not go into a Dzogchen forum expecting anyone there to accept or use Zen's vehicle hierarchy).
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
In Zen do you have to do preliminary sutra stuff?
No. Is it necessary to do so in Dzogchen?

Of course, sutras are valued in Zen...and there is a Zen take on how to use them, i.e. at the stage of advanced practice to confirm and seal one's realization.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
You have to read between the lines.
Yep.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Zen simply does not have the OOMPH that Dzogchen does.
To say so, I expect you have received the secret transmitted teachings of some Zen lineage?
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
Zen is sutra and maybe has some lower tantra.
Zen does not recognize that distinction at all. You have either entered the gate of recognizing your nature, or you have not.

If you have done so, you realize what sutras/tantras and "vehicles" are for. If you have not done so, it doesn't matter what tradition's teachers you hang out with: as an individual you have not even attained to the Shravaka vehicle, let alone the Great Vehicle or the Ekayana that transcends vehicles.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
Dzogchen has everything Zen has and much more. Of course it has more oomph. There are much more methods for recognizing the nature of mind and for integration.
How many Zen methods have you learned?

Really, the kind of ill-informed parrot-speak triumphalism in these last few posts is a drag, especially when it is from someone obviously unfamiliar with Zen, and posting in the Zen forum to boot.

If you're interested to learn what Zen really transmits and involves, I suggest you find a good teacher and go do it for 20 years. If not, it is better not to broadcast one's knowledge deficits...and better still to just work on your own path.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Motova » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:42 pm

Meido wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:16 pm
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:53 pm
There is no Guru Yoga in Zen. In Dzogchen one's Lama is Buddha.

Also I assume Zen doesn't have Dream Yoga or Tummo or most of the methods Dzogchen has access to.
Zen has its own methods, kuden (oral instruction), and hidden practices, with which you appear unfamiliar.

Some of these methods bear some resemblance to things found elsewhere, but that is another topic (not one I'm terribly interested in discussing). But basically, Zen is accomplished through the body.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Where are the Zen public pointing out intructions?
Rather obviously everywhere, though we use the term "direct pointing," or more colloquially sottaku ("pecking") for this crucial activity of the teacher, which is in fact the teacher's primary initial task vis a vis the student.

As for the specific transmitted methods of arranging conditions such that the student has the recognition we call kensho (upon which all subsequent practice is based) or methods allowing the student to repeatedly revisit that experiential realization along the path of seamless embodiment, these are mostly orally transmitted and so not widely known or found in popular works. If you wish, you can see my next book in which I scandalously reveal a pile of them.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
In Dzogchen one begins directly with pointing out instructions, does Zen do that?
Zen begins with direct pointing. Simultaneously, with practices to dissolve obstructions to kensho for those who don't "get" it, and to cultivate the samadhi that will be crucial for all students at some point along the path of clarifying kensho and dissolving karmic traces.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Is Zen a separate yana like Dzogchen?
Zen of course doesn't use that yana scheme. It has its own, considering itself an expression of Ekayana, meaning in this case those paths founded upon, and taking as their gate, the recognition of one's nature, and ultimately transcending distinctions of vehicles, paths, sects, sutra vs. tantra, and "Buddhism." From the Zen standpoint, I would personally classify Dzogchen also an expression of Ekayana in this way (though I would not go into a Dzogchen forum expecting anyone there to accept or use Zen's vehicle hierarchy).
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
In Zen do you have to do preliminary sutra stuff?
No. Is it necessary to do so in Dzogchen?

Of course, sutras are valued in Zen...and there is a Zen take on how to use them, i.e. at the stage of advanced practice to confirm and seal one's realization.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
You have to read between the lines.
Yep.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:10 pm
Zen simply does not have the OOMPH that Dzogchen does.
To say so, I expect you have received the secret transmitted teachings of some Zen lineage?
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
Zen is sutra and maybe has some lower tantra.
Zen does not recognize that distinction at all. You have either entered the gate of recognizing your nature, or you have not.

If you have done so, you realize what sutras/tantras and "vehicles" are for. If you have not done so, it doesn't matter what tradition's teachers you hang out with: as an individual you have not even attained to the Shravaka vehicle, let alone the Great Vehicle or the Ekayana that transcends vehicles.
Motova wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:22 pm
Dzogchen has everything Zen has and much more. Of course it has more oomph. There are much more methods for recognizing the nature of mind and for integration.
How many Zen methods have you learned?

Really, the kind of ill-informed parrot-speak triumphalism in these last few posts is a drag, especially when it is from someone obviously unfamiliar with Zen, and posting in the Zen forum to boot.

If you're interested to learn what Zen really transmits and involves, I suggest you find a good teacher and go do it for 20 years. If not, it is better not to broadcast one's knowledge deficits...and better still to just work on your own path.
Thank you. :smile:

Does Zen have Guru Yoga?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

passel
Posts: 434
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by passel » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:53 pm

No GY by that name, or in that specific formulation. There is an important stream within zen that you could slap that label on; however, it will be a poor fit and you will find forcing 1:1 corespondences will make a distorting and frustrating graft, not a meaningful path
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

User avatar
Matt J
Posts: 731
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:29 am

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Matt J » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:10 am

I did not review the videos, but from my personal experience only, I think that Zen and Dzogchen are pointing in the same direction. Some of the methods are identical. I think that Dzogchen teachings has been systemitized in a way that Zen has not, which has positive and negative aspects.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

steve_bakr
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:03 am

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by steve_bakr » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:29 am

You are proving my point. Didn't I say I had it done by a teacher? Be that as it may, this book, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and translated by John Myrdin, is a pointing out instruction which says in the book itself that it can be received through reading. The Guru says that and the translator says that too, so you should take it up with the Guru himself and the translator, not me.
This is an example of the larger issues such as guru worship and authentication. If someone cannot find a teacher, this book is sufficient for a pointing out instruction. It is not rocket science, but this book does the best job of it. A teacher is always best, but there are no such things as secret writings anymore. But that's just my own opinion.

I have been there and done all that. This is not a Dzogchen forum, so an opinion may be expressed. Once again, take up the book itself, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness." It is presented as an authentic pointing out instruction in which to read it is sufficient. Your argument is with the book itself.

Many people need to be reached. This is the age when all this information is available. Pointing out instructions are understandable through this book. It doesn't bother me if you say that this understanding is insufficient without a teacher's empowerment. Fine. I am not insulted. Why are you? I have had the empowerment too.

This is the Information Age. There are a lot of valid discussions which could be pursued where appropriate regarding the dissemination of religious information, what is authentic in this new age versus the role of the teacher when you have billions of people to reach.

Fine, we have different opinions. God bless you. Me I am going to return to my zazen and koan study. I encourage everyone to be tolerant of other people's opinions and take 10 deep breaths before responding.

Let the peace of your religious practice be reflected in your posts. I know where this is heading and am bowing out at least for now. You know, in Zen we are told not too have excessively strong opinions because these lead to conflict with others.

Motova
Posts: 1140
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by Motova » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:54 am

steve_bakr wrote:
Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:29 am
You are proving my point. Didn't I say I had it done by a teacher? Be that as it may, this book, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness," by Guru Padmasambhava and translated by John Myrdin, is a pointing out instruction which says in the book itself that it can be received through reading. The Guru says that and the translator says that too, so you should take it up with the Guru himself and the translator, not me.
This is an example of the larger issues such as guru worship and authentication. If someone cannot find a teacher, this book is sufficient for a pointing out instruction. It is not rocket science, but this book does the best job of it. A teacher is always best, but there are no such things as secret writings anymore. But that's just my own opinion.

I have been there and done all that. This is not a Dzogchen forum, so an opinion may be expressed. Once again, take up the book itself, "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness." It is presented as an authentic pointing out instruction in which to read it is sufficient. Your argument is with the book itself.

Many people need to be reached. This is the age when all this information is available. Pointing out instructions are understandable through this book. It doesn't bother me if you say that this understanding is insufficient without a teacher's empowerment. Fine. I am not insulted. Why are you? I have had the empowerment too.

This is the Information Age. There are a lot of valid discussions which could be pursued where appropriate regarding the dissemination of religious information, what is authentic in this new age versus the role of the teacher when you have billions of people to reach.

Fine, we have different opinions. God bless you. Me I am going to return to my zazen and koan study. I encourage everyone to be tolerant of other people's opinions and take 10 deep breaths before responding.

Let the peace of your religious practice be reflected in your posts. I know where this is heading and am bowing out at least for now. You know, in Zen we are told not too have excessively strong opinions because these lead to conflict with others.
:rolling:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

DesertDweller
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:13 pm

Re: Pointing-Out-Instructions and Zen

Post by DesertDweller » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:13 am

Wow this is turning out to be a great discussion, and I'm learning a lot--thanks to all who have posted so far! _/\_

PS Motova I don't see what is so funny about Steve Bakr's post that it deserves to be dismissed with rudeness. You may not agree, but ROTFL emoticons are a crude way to show it.

Post Reply

Return to “Zen”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dan74 and 6 guests