doctrinal unity

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clyde
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doctrinal unity

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:07 pm

In another thread, Astus wrote:
Astus wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:35 am
Today there are bigger and smaller organisations (Soto, Jogye, Fo Guang Shan, etc.), but even within those there isn't much of doctrinal unity, not to mention all the Western Zen communities that can operate in complete independence apart from any Asian hierarchy.
While there are differences in doctrinal emphasis (and practices) between the lineages, I think there is a fair degree of doctrinal unity.

So, if you believe the contrary, what doctrinal differences do you see?
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Meido
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Meido » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:43 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:07 pm
While there are differences in doctrinal emphasis (and practices) between the lineages, I think there is a fair degree of doctrinal unity.

So, if you believe the contrary, what doctrinal differences do you see?
FWIW, in my conversations with Chan, Zen, Son, and Thien folks I've discovered no fundamental doctrinal differences...just inheritances of different collections of practice methods (e.g. integration of Pure Land practices in later Chan that didn't make it into Japanese Zen).

The only exceptions to this I might possibly note are among some Western Zen folks who affirm a so-called secular view negating large chunks of Buddhist teaching, and some Soto Zen folks who interpret non-seeking and Dogen's famous "practice = verification" statement to mean that there is no need for awakening, fruition of practice, or realization. But neither of these viewpoints is what I would consider a classic or mainstream Zen one.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

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Astus
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:56 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:07 pm
While there are differences in doctrinal emphasis (and practices) between the lineages, I think there is a fair degree of doctrinal unity.
What I meant is the absence of a requirement to comply with a specific set of doctrines within the various organisations. It can be said that there is a fair degree of unity even in the whole of Buddhism, more in East Asian Mahayana, and even more if we look at only e.g. Korean Zen. But I have not yet heard of an institution that outlines the particular teachings that they consider orthodox, unlike the major Christian churches.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Temicco » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:02 am

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:07 pm
In another thread, Astus wrote:
Astus wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:35 am
Today there are bigger and smaller organisations (Soto, Jogye, Fo Guang Shan, etc.), but even within those there isn't much of doctrinal unity, not to mention all the Western Zen communities that can operate in complete independence apart from any Asian hierarchy.
While there are differences in doctrinal emphasis (and practices) between the lineages, I think there is a fair degree of doctrinal unity.

So, if you believe the contrary, what doctrinal differences do you see?
There are different views about cultivation of kensho; Seongcheol for instance teaching sudden awakening with sudden cultivation, and most other peope teaching sudden awakening with gradual cultivation.

Also, I do not practice Soto, but as far as I have read (and this is stated in Eihei Koroku), Soto does this cultivation in zazen... whereas other lineages do it during all 4 postures.

There are also differences in how hwadu is taught in Korea.
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Anders » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:22 am

Astus wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:56 pm
clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 10:07 pm
While there are differences in doctrinal emphasis (and practices) between the lineages, I think there is a fair degree of doctrinal unity.
What I meant is the absence of a requirement to comply with a specific set of doctrines within the various organisations. It can be said that there is a fair degree of unity even in the whole of Buddhism, more in East Asian Mahayana, and even more if we look at only e.g. Korean Zen. But I have not yet heard of an institution that outlines the particular teachings that they consider orthodox, unlike the major Christian churches.
Is this needed?
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I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Astus » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:01 pm

Anders wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:22 am
Is this needed?
No. It's actually the point that Zen does not mean a specific teaching or method.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by clyde » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:19 pm

Astus; I get that the Zen tradition has no single institutional authority, but there are practices and teachings that differentiate Zen from other Buddhist (and non-Buddhist) traditions and define the Zen tradition, yes?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:28 am

clyde wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:19 pm
there are practices and teachings that differentiate Zen from other Buddhist (and non-Buddhist) traditions and define the Zen tradition, yes?
What are those unique teachings and practices?

Kanna Zen is likely the most unique element, and it encompasses almost everything one can associate with the general view of Zen. The problem with that is that it was first propagated in the 12th century, and it is not embraced universally.

As for teaching, sudden enlightenment is possibly the term that can cover the central theme of Zen teachings, as long as we take it to include the belief that it is possible to directly perceive the nature of mind without prerequisites (discipline, meditation, study), and that the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddhahood. As for practice, non-thought is likely the essence of all methods, meaning the absence of grasping at concepts, behind what lies the view that from grasping at thoughts emerge everything.

Why then does not this mean a doctrinal unity? Because not setting up a doctrine to be upheld is the very path itself. :tongue:
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:47 pm

Astus wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:28 am
What are those unique teachings and practices?
It seems you’ve answered your question regarding teachings: “sudden enlightenment”, “directly perceive the nature of mind”, and “the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddhahood”; and regarding practice: “the absence of grasping at concepts”.

This was summarized by Bodhidharma, the First Zen Patriarch:
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters;
Direct pointing to the mind of man;
Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:13 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:47 pm
This was summarized by Bodhidharma, the First Zen Patriarch:
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters;
Direct pointing to the mind of man;
Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.
How does that quatrain match with what I wrote?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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clyde
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:38 pm

Really?

“A special transmission outside the scriptures;” = “sudden enlightenment” (admittedly this is a bit of a stretch ;) )
“No dependence on words and letters;” = “the absence of grasping at concepts”
“Direct pointing to the mind of man;” = “directly perceive the nature of mind”
“Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.” = “the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddhahood”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Astus » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:53 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:38 pm
(admittedly this is a bit of a stretch ;) )
It is.
“No dependence on words and letters;” = “the absence of grasping at concepts”
That may fit, unless one reads it with the previous line and takes it to mean rejecting doctrines and scriptures.
“Direct pointing to the mind of man;” = “directly perceive the nature of mind”
Somebody else pointing it out and oneself perceiving it are not the same, even if there can be a causal relationship.
“Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.” = “the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddhahood”
It sounds more like one being the cause and the other the result.

Why all that doesn't really give a doctrinal unity is that neither the nature, nor the way one can see it is specified.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Sentient Light » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:59 pm

At least in Vietnamese Buddhism, schools like Thien or Pure Land or Tiantai are not considered independent traditions, but different vocations within the broader study and practice of Buddha-dharma. While we lack any kind of doctrinal dogma (in the sense of, "you MUST interpret things this way"), all doctrines are viewed as more-or-less equally valid, just different systems of approaching knowledge/insight. As far as I can tell, we lean pretty heavily Yogacara and don't place a whole lot of emphasis on Madhyamaka teachings, but I think the Vietnamese transmission takes tremendous strides to present Buddha-dharma as a single comprehensive system with multiple vocations of study. Like how a physicist and a chemist might have very different things to say about the nature of reality, but one's set of 'doctrines' doesn't necessarily contradict the other's because they're looking at different things (or the same things in different ways).
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by bokki » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:42 am

oh, clyde
So, if you believe the contrary, what doctrinal differences do you see?
i see so, so so, so many differences i this so called unity of b doc,
and i am not talking about a zen view, ''differences are not to be perceived, all is one'',,..and such

you have devotional , mantric, tantric, mystical, sacread, wordl;y, activist, peace you all, ill burn for politics, asceticism, high saint, hypocrisy, deep meditations...and a bunch of meek, GOOD plpl that tolarate this, but hey, thats how it is, who can do anything bout it, take care of what you think, not the others, , politics, sect wars, sex scandals, preaching in the name of the lord, while leeching..i mean, you name it..LOL

SEE HERE, JUST TODAY A SMALL BUREAUCRAT MADE A BIG DECISION IN HIS SMALL LIFE..
what doctrinal unity, it 99% on paper, a bunch of lies.
was it not, this world would have been already better,
buddhist tolerance..yeah, tell me bout it..LOL

and yes, it is personal, that i 4 ex respect u, but smirk at another..
and again, nothing to do with the nothing person.
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10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Matt J
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by Matt J » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:22 pm

None of these ideas are particular to Zen--- they are all found within the Tibetan traditions. In addition, there are correlates to those ideas in non-dual Shaiva Tantra. Even using non-traditional methods like slaps and strange behavior has a long history in Tibetan Buddhism. Having practiced for some years in both traditions, I can say that the only unique method I have found in Zen is the use of koans and dokusan, which as Astus points out was a relatively late addition.
clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:47 pm

It seems you’ve answered your question regarding teachings: “sudden enlightenment”, “directly perceive the nature of mind”, and “the nature of mind is identical to the nature of buddhahood”; and regarding practice: “the absence of grasping at concepts”.

This was summarized by Bodhidharma, the First Zen Patriarch:
A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence on words and letters;
Direct pointing to the mind of man;
Seeing into one's nature and attaining Buddhahood.
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

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clyde
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by clyde » Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:07 pm

I have no idea what the issue is here.

I quoted Astus who said, “there isn’t much doctrinal unity” among the Zen communities. I disagreed,
While there are differences in doctrinal emphasis (and practices) between the lineages, I think there is a fair degree of doctrinal unity.
Astus, in replying to another post said, “Zen does not mean a specific teaching or method.” I disagreed,
there are practices and teachings that differentiate Zen from other Buddhist (and non-Buddhist) traditions and define the Zen tradition
Certainly Zen Buddhism shares much in both teachings and practices with other Buddhist traditions. But if all the traditions and sects and lineages were the same in all respects, we wouldn’t have all the traditions and sects and lineages.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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bokki
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by bokki » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:10 pm

clyde, thnx..
well the issue u raised is about doctrinal unity or differences within zen, i could add, within buddhism , all of them.

maybe a small digression,maybe of topic..
when a monk asked ta hui in front of d assembly, and his teacher,
'' a sword hangs above your head, how about it?''
ta hui answered
'' the blood spurts to heaven!''
or
the two crows fighting over a frog..

or when a famous zen patriarch says all buddhism is one,
and then goes on to slander other sects and practices..

that is not so much of a consern of mine, but say..

no preferences..does it mean one prefers not to prefer?
dont pick and choose..does it mean one picked not to pick and choose?
does it mean some 1 will be banned, bcs he chose to choose,
and no 1 chose to tolerate, but picked to bann..

i mean , what doctrinal unity, in the highest teachings of zen?,,lol
just look and see what is happening, no need to explain.

btw, this is probably a bit of topic, or not,..lol
pick a choose which..lol

sorry,
b
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by bokki » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:09 am

well, silence,..ok
anyway, lets go eeeasy
u meet this girl, u like her, she is nuts bout u,
then u find out , she works the late hours, and she confirms , she knew ull know,
where is ur doctrinal unity now...
hitting just a bit of road..

so, easy still, two crows...
howdy frog, how are you...lol

then, may i ask ..
talking bout gutei, u fk..
return me the finger!

never mind that, i saw
the back half of the nansens cat walking about, trying to eat...

LOL

WHO IS A SAINT,
here>?

i mean, what u preaching, lol!
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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bokki
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Re: doctrinal unity

Post by bokki » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:10 pm

ok, silence..
lol
about this doctrinal unity.

say, ill play it nice..
buddhist

is one sorry to be,
or is one to be sorry
?

fascinated by walking on nothing,
or even not knowing what one utters,
not being able to respond
to a few or 1 question,
makes u lazy, or ignorant,..

just tell me,
where is this doctrinal unity?

any1?
no1?

LOL
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

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